PLD loses CE slower than BLM?

[willriker]

Forgive me if this isnt considered advanced. If it is decided that this should be in the newbie section that is fine, and i apologise for posting in this forum as aposed to the other. But let me get to the point of the thread.

PLD loses CE from being hit at a lower rate than BLM. This is the only job combination that i have done this test for. If you like i can decribe the test... awe screw it, you guys might be able to help identify the reason for this phenominon. Because my friend, Zangetsu on Odin and i are completely stumped on what causes this to occur.

The Goal:
Identify how much CE is lost per point of damage taken
In retrospect we both recognise that this test would not provide that information. However it has gave us something which might be a bit more interesting than the original goal.

The Jobs:
PLD/RDM, BLM/RDM, and a puller, all no gear

The Enemy:
A Sheep or something low level

The Test:
PLD and BLM put up stoneskin and Phalanx (because getting hit for 0 means no hate loss due to damage taken)
Puller pulls with an ichi enfeeble
PLD casts Flash
BLM casts Stun (balance the CE)
wait for a minute for VE to be reduce to 0
Drop Phalanx and stoneskin
Log damage taken before the enemy turns to the other tester.

Expected Results:
lets assume PLD has hate before both drop phalanx and stoneskin
PLD would take 1 point of damage, CE would drop below the BLM's CE
Enemy turns to BLM
BLM takes 1 point of damage
CE is equal, BLM still has hate
BLM takes 1 point of damage, BLM's CE is below PLD'c CE
Enemy turns to the PLD

Results Obtained:
lets assume PLD has hate before both drop phalanx and stoneskin
PLD takes 1 point of damage
PLD takes 1 point of damage
PLD takes 1 point of damage
PLD takes 1 point of damage
PLD takes 1 point of damage (5 total)
Hate moves to BLM
BLM takes 1 point of damage(1-2 total)
Hate moves to PLD

Conclusion:
This repeats in a 5:1 damage ratio for us. Where 5 damage is taken by the PLD, at once or over time, to lose hate. And the BLM would take 1-2 damage before the enemy would return to the pld. We repeated this test with the pld stacking CHR, VIT, and DEF. In all cases the ratio remained constant for our testing group. Now your ratio might differ for some reason, which is why i was hoping to get some feedback or confirmation on this.

I always wanted to see if others witness the same strange occurance. And hopefully brainstorm as to why this occurs.

[Ohemgee]

Did you check to make sure they don't have enmity merits? D:

[willriker]

yeah we did, I was the PLD. The test above was for people to repeat the test with no enmity merits involved. So that they might be able to repeat correctly, yet under a differant set of circumstances to see if the pattern still holds.

But to answer the question. I do have 4 enmity merits (PLD) and the BLM had no emity merits. However, we did take this into account when balancing CE. The BLM generated the CE value of Flash +the added percentage gained from the enmity merits to balance out the CE value on each player.

Since emnity merits do not effect the rate of decay on VE. It does increase the VE generated, but does not effect the rate of decay (the last i checked). We assumed that the rate of decay on CE, due to damage would be the follow the same pattern as VE. Perhaps that was a flaw in our logic. However, if it was the thing to focus on... would emnity merits effect the rate at which CE decreases due to damage taken at a ratio of 5:1 as shown above?

We cannot find any differance between PLD and BLM which is a differance of 5:1. this is why we are stumped.

[rezn0r]

did the blm have a pentitent's rope on?

shake it up now, sugaree

just actually read the post, all no gear

ignore this

haw haw

my darling, sugaree

[Quicklet]

Did you take into account the possibility that a higher max HP reduces the amount of hate lost per damage? (Or to put it another way, hate lost due to taking damage is proportional to max HP.) Or has that been debunked?

[orson]

(because getting hit for 0 means no hate loss due to damage taken)

I don't now that getting hit for 0 or missing actually is 0 enmity loss has that actually been proven? Maybe you lose a small amount of CE per hit even with getting hit for 0 or a miss.

[Ashira]

I believe the test is flawed; the proper way to conduct this would be for the BLM to either equip +4 Enmity or for you to equip -4 Enmity... which even to me I still get twitchy about, even though Kae is fine with it. I'd still say go for people with no merits at all or at the same merit level.

It is possible that +Enmity may also work in the way we conjecture that Sirvente works, i.e., lowering CE lost when taking damage; but it's not a test we've put focus on yet. It would make some sense, as then it wouldn't be two entirely separate equations for regular +Enmity and Sirvente, but instead they'd just leave off the increase of VE generated equation on Sirvente.

Or you could have just simply figured the equations on the two spells incorrectly. I think instead of working on getting them equal by accounting for the +/- Enmity, you need to put both players at the same level of Enmity and then use the same spell, like our old standby of Dispel.

[Zeratu]

There's a very easy way to counter Enmity+4 merits... Mushroom Stew :3

[Aable]

will, i will work on this later with you, i have same emnity merits as you and and should be easy to test with me on blm.

[Narse]

I've already posted a test on this in the enmity thread quite some time ago, though not in great detail. The test was between two PLDs, one with no +CHR and the other in in full Koenig. Same enmity otherwise, the mob would hit the PLD with the stacked CHR for some damage, go hit the other PLD for noticably less damage, then back to the other PLD. You need to be looking at CHR differences, not job differences.

[Siralin]

I've already posted a test on this in the enmity thread quite some time ago, though not in great detail. The test was between two PLDs, one with no +CHR and the other in in full Koenig. Same enmity otherwise, the mob would hit the PLD with the stacked CHR for some damage, go hit the other PLD for noticably less damage, then back to the other PLD. You need to be looking at CHR differences, not job differences.

[Seraph]

I've already posted a test on this in the enmity thread quite some time ago, though not in great detail. The test was between two PLDs, one with no +CHR and the other in in full Koenig. Same enmity otherwise, the mob would hit the PLD with the stacked CHR for some damage, go hit the other PLD for noticably less damage, then back to the other PLD. You need to be looking at CHR differences, not job differences.

If CHR ends up having an effect on enmity decay afterall, I am going to laugh so hard. Poor BRDs.

[Samot]

as far as I know, as quicklet pointed out, max up has an effect on this.

As I understand it, the amount of hate lost by a player due to damage taken is based on what % of their total hp that damage represents. For example a player with 100 total hp gets hit for 10 damage, that represents 10% of their hp and a large amount of hate lost compared to a player with 1000 hp, to whom 10 damage only represents 1% of their hp. I'd never seen evidence to dissuade this belief, and the idea carries with it the benefit that not only would hp gear serve a pld well in taking more/larger hits, but also to retain hate more easily. Even if it isn't true, I WANT to believe it haha.

Anecdotal evidence that reinforces my belief is often seeing, when a pld loses hate, the mob hit a blm once, really hard, then moving to the next one. Also, it would account for the increasing amount of hate higher level cures produce, not only because they cure more hp numerically, but because they represent a larger % of the targets max hp as well.

If this theory has been disproven, I'd like to hear about it, cause I try to be a knowledgeable pld if possible.

Edit: I thought that CHR thing had been disproven long ago. As far as I know, for tanking purposes, the effect of CHR is to increase activation of "killer" effects. I'd be interested to hear if it did more, but I don't think so.

[Narse]

as far as I know, as quicklet pointed out, max up has an effect on this.

As I understand it, the amount of hate lost by a player due to damage taken is based on what % of their total hp that damage represents. For example a player with 100 total hp gets hit for 10 damage, that represents 10% of their hp and a large amount of hate lost compared to a player with 1000 hp, to whom 10 damage only represents 1% of their hp. I'd never seen evidence to dissuade this belief, and the idea carries with it the benefit that not only would hp gear serve a pld well in taking more/larger hits, but also to retain hate more easily. Even if it isn't true, I WANT to believe it haha.

Anecdotal evidence that reinforces my belief is often seeing, when a pld loses hate, the mob hit a blm once, really hard, then moving to the next one. Also, it would account for the increasing amount of hate higher level cures produce, not only because they cure more hp numerically, but because they represent a larger % of the targets max hp as well.

If this theory has been disproven, I'd like to hear about it, cause I try to be a knowledgeable pld if possible.

Edit: I thought that CHR thing had been disproven long ago. As far as I know, for tanking purposes, the effect of CHR is to increase activation of "killer" effects. I'd be interested to hear if it did more, but I don't think so.

CHR has been proven to have no effect on the amount of enmity gained when performing actions and no effect on the decay of volatile enmity. However, it has not been proven to have no effect on the amount of enmity lost when taking damage. Would make sense as to why Koenig has so much of it (a blood-tanking gear set), and as far as my test went, a Taru PLD had the Koenig gear on and a Galka PLD had no CHR gear on; the Galka's HP was higher than the Taru's when I performed the test, so while it doesn't disprove that HP% isn't important, it does go to show that HP% wouldn't be the only factor, if it is even a factor at all.

[Kaeko]

The testing itself cuts a couple of corners which makes me hesitant to fully take the result and your conclusion at face value. It's a very annoying procedure, but I always build upon each test, making sure as many assumptions and controls are amply proven before moving onto the next step; to reach such a big conclusion which goes against the "norm" (everything being the same) requires a good deal of proof on your part.

I'm also a bit hesitant because I was able to talk a bit with your partner Zang awhile back since we're all on Odin and I even ran some tests with him to disprove something he said about Shield Bash Enmity I think. You guys were using La Thaine Plateau mobs? That's not an easy mob to run control tests on since they can hit into the 20s. He even mentioned this test with me at that time and I poked a few holes in it then. I don't question that what you saw actually happen happened, just that there are just a lot of details I don't feel were controlled well, so moving from what happened to your specific conclusion is difficult.

Still, feel free to talk about this with me in game. I think we both may be a bit busy with new NM material at the moment to run tests in spare time though. I'm more likely to see you at Ixion than testing for now =P

[willriker]

Thankyou for so much feedback XD.

ill get a hold of aable and repeat this test, then report back. This is just something that has been bugging me since i did the test with Zang.
Ill use flash and he'll use stun. since both have the enmity merits. that should be fine.

oh, it was in the highlands. So long ago that i forgot the enemy names, but well go try this at a starting area.

[Seraph]

Kinda related, but has anyone determined the Enmity rating for Reprisal? I went looking in the usual sources, but it seems noone has posted the information if the value is known. I get the feeling it's low on hate generation just based on observations, definately not comparable to flash.