Ruke's All-Purpose Thread of DA/Askar/Haste/etc and Win!

[RKenshin]

EDIT 2:
Split! from http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60070


Dragged the PLD thread way off topic but this has been an interesting convo, so Isla had the idea of splitting it and enacted it! Hopefully for the better!
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It's not hard for any job to get really high defense, especially with Cocoon. Without any buffs a PLD has maybe 80-130 max or so defense over a normal unbuffed DD job. Which doesn't compare at all to how insane cocoon's +50% defense is. Most PLDs don't really have access to defender now either.

I do agree though, PLD has been getting pimped to hell... I'd rather see other jobs get boosted up first before they try to "help" PLDs bloodtank more. Which in the end just gave them more of a reason to /NIN on the idea that it makes them close to invincible with all the buffs and some common sense.


EDIT:
On another note, just because every time it comes up I ask this (and usually no one can really list anything)... What am I missing that SAM has been getting exclusively buffed with constantly that makes it anywhere near a level compared to PLD? Much less above any other melee. People keep saying it like every update they're getting something, but I'm not seeing anything. Aside from Sekkanoki, which isn't anything to write home about for 95% of the situations, there was nothing new given to just SAM since the Seigan/Hasso introduction years ago (which was also meant as a SJ buff). Unless you count the SAM WS damage nerfx2, but that's not really a boost.

I'm not saying it needs any buffs or doesn't get attention, as that's far from the case, but hardly would say it's 'getting buffed left and right' or anything. There's a big difference between that and the job being very well off as it is now, and people keep saying the former when it's really the latter.

[Max™]

People being butthurt about Overwhelm, the added 4% from 5/5, Sekka, the ridiculous confluence of events that led to the Sam > The World during the post 2h buff/pre-adjustment period, Hasso/Seigan being major changes, recent in a lot of peoples memories, and few other jobs getting that much.

I just got my first new JA which I didn't have to merit... uh, ever?

It's just a joke about how instead of putting in adjustments for jobs which really need it, you just know Sam is going to get something else added in, like an assassin trait for TA, and native TA... don't know why they'd do it, but it's kind of funny to say.

[Amele]

Possibly, and possibly not. Cactaurs aren't common mobs to fight, especially in a setting where you'll be all buffed up.

I'd think that if anything the first merit in Protectra V would not have it, and it'd just be the merits afterwards. The first merit adds 60 defense, which is OK, but each additional is an incredibly shitty 2 defense? It'd make it a whole lot more worthwhile if with the 2 defense you also had -physical taken.

Odds are strongly in favor of it not being true but, wouldn't hurt to find out for sure. It wouldn't be the first time SE slipped something in.

we tested specifically for this and didn't find anything. (sadly) had a couple friends who wasted a good 7(and 9) merits on it.

the first merit at 60 Def isn't anything to write home about really; pro IV is 55 (I'm sure you know this). fully buffed Pro V is now 68 def, (+13 total) compare to the III->IV and II->III changes (+15 each) and it's *still* low *and* costs 12 merits (which buys a ton of other more useful stuff in that category). so even though it's not worthless now, it's not useful either.

honestly if SE wanted to make it worth the points they'd need to totally revamp it; which might have the (undesired) side effect of making whm a viable tank.(barspells are already hax for sustaining hate, make whitemage hax for damage taken too and all that's left is finding some way generate good spike hate to start things off.)*


to the original topic of the thread: the easiest way to fix the VIT/DEF problem would be to revamp how cRatio(on both sides) is calculated (basically doing away with the static level correction) and replacing the attack and defense values of mobs with something that scales appropriately. - the second step would be to give mobs more of their damage from attack and less from base damage. - but now you've completely changed the way mobs work, made Bio *sick* and buffed paladins (again). If you really want to see warriors tanking again, give them some trait that makes them not lose hate (as much) when getting hit in the face. (which will of course be *another* buff for warrior, who is possibly the only job that has never seen a nerf, thanks to its positioning on the intersection of tanking, 1h DD, and 2h DD).


*edited: not that I'd complain, barspell tanking is almost as much fun to see as /brd tanking.

[Max™]

SATA/TA WS can give the opening spike, Flash, and gear swap > Cure bomb can help too.

Gaxe Warrior's started semi-nerfed, I first started leveling War just before they nerfed soloing worms outside spell range, was using a Bow and Arrow, and it rocked.

Defender giving a -% Dmg effect would make me happy, I just wish Retaliation timer was shorter so I wouldn't be forced to choose between clicking it off to run, or not having it kick in randomly, which is made of much happy.

[Amele]

oh definitely, all the 2h jobs needed a buff - gaxe war included. now that they've done something about the balance of power between x/nin and x/sam jobs war is in a pretty good place overall I think.

making them top tier tanks would mess with that, but that's true of making alot of jobs top tier tanks at this point.

[RKenshin]

People being butthurt about Overwhelm, the added 4% from 5/5, Sekka, the ridiculous confluence of events that led to the Sam > The World during the post 2h buff/pre-adjustment period, Hasso/Seigan being major changes, recent in a lot of peoples memories, and few other jobs getting that much.

I just got my first new JA which I didn't have to merit... uh, ever?

It's just a joke about how instead of putting in adjustments for jobs which really need it, you just know Sam is going to get something else added in, like an assassin trait for TA, and native TA... don't know why they'd do it, but it's kind of funny to say.

Overwhelm/Hasso/Seigan have been in the game for years now, before SAM was even considered to be even close to the top DDs, and the merit #2 upgrade was for every single job. Not to mention, Overwhelm was also the only one nerfed of the upgrades, and SAM WS were nerfed twice after the 2h adjustment. I don't see any of that being applicable to 'SAM getting exclusively buffed constantly in all of the recent updates.'

Some people just joke and poke fun about it (like you are), but most are serious.

But again, there's a big difference between 'getting buffed left and right' and the job being very well off as it is now, and people keep saying the former when it's really the latter.

we tested specifically for this and didn't find anything. (sadly) had a couple friends who wasted a good 7(and 9) merits on it.

the first merit at 60 Def isn't anything to write home about really; pro IV is 55 (I'm sure you know this). fully buffed Pro V is now 68 def, (+13 total) compare to the III->IV and II->III changes (+15 each) and it's *still* low *and* costs 12 merits (which buys a ton of other more useful stuff in that category). so even though it's not worthless now, it's not useful either.

honestly if SE wanted to make it worth the points they'd need to totally revamp it; which might have the (undesired) side effect of making whm a viable tank.(barspells are already hax for sustaining hate, make whitemage hax for damage taken too and all that's left is finding some way generate good spike hate to start things off.)*

Boo, that really, really sucks.

Thanks for posting the info though.

Defender giving a -% Dmg effect would make me happy, I just wish Retaliation timer was shorter so I wouldn't be forced to choose between clicking it off to run, or not having it kick in randomly, which is made of much happy.

GA WAR is the most powerful job in the game now IMO, only downside being that it needs defensive capabilities from the SJ or it's completely naked. I would say that damage wise no buffs are really needed, but damage reduction wise it could use something.

But many other 2h jobs could use buffs like that too (more than WAR does), in both areas. D:

[Khrno]

GA WAR is the most powerful job in the game now IMO, only downside being that it needs defensive capabilities from the SJ or it's completely naked. I would say that damage wise no buffs are really needed, but damage reduction wise it could use something.

But many other 2h jobs could use buffs like that too (more than WAR does), in both areas. D:

I totally agree with that, epeen wise, if i want to get even and try to surpass a decked GA WAR in a merit party, I have to spam Souleater, literally, and that's just not wise and practical.

But WAR is in need of a true defensive ability, Defender doesn't cut it, and Retaliation won#t prevent your HP from going down as TE and Counter do.

Maybe that is WAR's Achilles heel in SE eyes? Even thought it should be the most rounded up job, but I would apply that definition to SAM (in att/def capabilities) since WAR lacks good defensive ones.

[Therin]

I totally agree with that, epeen wise, if i want to get even and try to surpass a decked GA WAR in a merit party, I have to spam Souleater, literally, and that's just not wise and practical.

But WAR is in need of a true defensive ability, Defender doesn't cut it, and Retaliation won#t prevent your HP from going down as TE and Counter do.

Maybe that is WAR's Achilles heel in SE eyes? Even thought it should be the most rounded up job, but I would apply that definition to SAM (in att/def capabilities) since WAR lacks good defensive ones.

WAR/NIN is still a pretty good jack-of-all trades, but in most circumstances it's just a waste of resource. WAR/SAM can tank most everything that it should need to (merit parties, Nyzul bosses and Salvage chariots), and Utsusemi isn't worth giving up the damage unless it's an extreme case where a lot of the damage you're taking is from AoE which can be absorbed with shadows (like maybe Proto-Ultima?).

[kayn]

PLD:
pld def bonus trait is much like drks attack bonus trait. people say that x bonus +IV is a lot but it's really squat. (idk if that applies to dual wield IV though...i'm sure there's other good ones)

RK on SAM:
I have no idea why people are still hard up on shouting "zomg nerf sam" still.
I'm fairly sure I could out dmg a well geared/merited sam in xp on my drk.
The sam nerf may have been harder than it should have. Overwhelm didn't even bring sam back to where it was. And while it is good, it will put sams in the way of many frontal tp moves and much like sa & ta if the mob moves you're SoL.
I personally have been quite disappointed w/ the WS numbers i've seen from a lot of really good sams.

WAR:
People seem to also refuse to believe that this job isn't completely broken/overpowered.
Not only are they probably untouchable /sam they are the only job that can also dish out top damage /nin too. While I can outparse ebody/riddil wars it's usually really close.
Maybe people just haven't realized what's possible w/ a war/sam, sam/war and a brd + cor in the pt.
war/sam gets 10% base dbl atk
5% from merits
5% on brutal
2% on pole strap
2% on askar body
24% dbl atk before the 7 to 24% from fighter's roll.
While I'm no war or sam, if those #s are wrong, please correct me.

[Khrno]

WAR:

2% on askar body

And you are eating Sushi or you are getting Madrigal instead of March from the BRD in that setup to unequip the Adaberk just for a 2% DA?

And colibris aren't a valid excuse, that's more like the gimp/lazy camp if you ask me.

[RKenshin]

Askar body isn't the most ideal of the WAR options, but if you're at/very close to the acc cap without an accuracy body it's a nice alternative. But you can't normally do that without insane gear + full merits and/or Madrigal.

If you are capped on accuracy though, I'd probably take Ares over Askar. 7 STR and 17 attack is hard to replace.

[Khrno]

If you are capped on accuracy though, I'd probably take Ares over Askar. 7 STR and 17 attack is hard to replace.

I've said that many times to some people that Ares would be a better option than Askar if Acc isn't an issue, but some people yet believe 2% DA will outweight the 7/17 increment in dot.

[Jedimasta]

Assuming were talking about stacking DA and not haste, would full Ares if it is truely 10% (with 2% more from legs) be as godly as it sounds?

[kayn]

I've said that many times to some people that Ares would be a better option than Askar if Acc isn't an issue, but some people yet believe 2% DA will outweight the 7/17 increment in dot.

I don't agree but I can't say I've put it through a scientific test.
But I take the view that stacking DA has the same benefits as stacking haste.
I have both askar and ares but no ebody. I've retired my ares since I got askar.
Also, if we're talking about people w/ askar and ares I'd be willing to bet the rest of their gear isn't crap and they have good merits.


Edit: to the above post
I'd personally say that a balance of haste + dbl attack is what you should aim for.
Ares set doesn't provide this. On my drk i have 17% haste and 9% da /sam

[Khrno]

Is it 10%? I thought it was 5% (the set bonus w/o counting legs stat), due to some earlier tests done with full Usukane, however I really never saw anything about the DA bonus again.

Even so it won't beat a Haste setup, however it is great as a whole for multi-hit ws (Guillo, Penta, RR might be too).

[Khrno]

On my drk i have 17% haste and 11% da /sam

There is a graph of Haste vs DA that has been posted twice in KI, in the DRK forum, really can't be bothered looking it up right now, but it clearly shows the advantage of Haste vs DA. It is probably in one of those Haste or DB topics.

Is that 17% Haste from Turban/SB/Homam or from Ace/SB/Dusk+1/Homam, because with a Turban/Att body combo you are losing too much Acc, the Ace combo is better but still I see the Acc drop being substantial outside Colibris.

[kayn]

There is a graph of Haste vs DA that has been posted twice in KI, in the DRK forum, really can't be bothered looking it up right now, but it clearly shows the advantage of Haste vs DA. It is probably in one of those Haste or DB topics.

Is that 17% Haste from Turban/SB/Homam or from Ace/SB/Dusk+1/Homam, because with a Turban/Att body combo you are losing too much Acc, the Ace combo is better but still I see the Acc drop being substantial outside Colibris.

Ace's Helm (4%)
homam hands/legs/feet (9%)
swift belt (4%)

brutal (5%), pole strap (2%), askar body (2%) gives me 9% dbl atk
shit, I had the 11% DA in my head from ares legs (which I believe a Apoc drk should wear full time but I don't have one)

[Amele]

Is it 10%? I thought it was 5% (the set bonus w/o counting legs stat), due to some earlier tests done with full Usukane, however I really never saw anything about the DA bonus again.

Even so it won't beat a Haste setup, however it is great as a whole for multi-hit ws (Guillo, Penta, RR might be too).

all the other bonuses are 5% either by direct observation or approximate fit. so there's no reason to expect Ares is any different.

Ares body still blows askar out of the water for war with high acc

[RKenshin]

I don't agree but I can't say I've put it through a scientific test.
But I take the view that stacking DA has the same benefits as stacking haste.
I have both askar and ares but no ebody. I've retired my ares since I got askar.
Also, if we're talking about people w/ askar and ares I'd be willing to bet the rest of their gear isn't crap and they have good merits.


Edit: to the above post
I'd personally say that a balance of haste + dbl attack is what you should aim for.
Ares set doesn't provide this. On my drk i have 17% haste and 9% da /sam

Haste is a linear increase, you gain no additional benefit from stacking it like haste. Haste is an exponential curve, which is much much different.

Adding 2% DA when you have no DA at all, and adding 2% DA when you have 50% total DA before it, gives practically the same exact increase in damage.** Because of this, as you get into higher values of haste, each point of haste is worth significantly more than each point of DA. And as a result, full Ares would almost never be a better option than a typical build for TP. However it does appear to be rather amazing WS gear.

**It is actually slightly less of a boost, due to diminishing returns and the fact that if you land a killing blow on the first swing of a DA, you never see the DA happen.


Also, for Ares to be better than Askar (an addition of 7 STR and 17 attack), it would only have to add about 4-5 points to your melee average at a base of 180 damage/hit. Which, it can do pretty easily.

[kayn]

Haste is a linear increase, you gain no additional benefit from stacking it like haste. Haste is an exponential curve, which is much much different.

Adding 2% DA when you have no DA at all, and adding 2% DA when you have 50% total DA before it, gives practically the same exact increase in damage.** Because of this, as you get into higher values of haste, each point of haste is worth significantly more than each point of DA. And as a result, full Ares would almost never be a better option than a typical build for TP. However it does appear to be rather amazing WS gear.

**It is actually slightly less of a boost, due to diminishing returns and the fact that if you land a killing blow on the first swing of a DA, you never see the DA happen.


Also, for Ares to be better than Askar (an addition of 7 STR and 17 attack), it would only have to add about 4-5 points to your melee average at a base of 180 damage/hit. Which, it can do pretty easily.

Some wars also feel the 12 vit means something.
edit: and I don't know how much the 7 str and 17 atk is gunna do when my tp setup is 82+17 str and 500-700 atk depending on the support.