I wrote a lolGuide (to Nyzul)

[Gaea]

EDIT: I forgot to mention it's for Nyzul Isle Assault in the title! OOPS!

Haha, try not to laugh. But seriously, it really doesn't apply to most of you because most of you have done enough Nyzul Isle that you could do it on your sleep. However, I thought I'd mention it here, because if you are like me, you might get A LOT of questions for advice and help from friends of yours who are all of a sudden interested in it because of the new weaponskills.

So, if you want to get them off of your back, and you think my guide is a good resource to help them out, feel free to tell them to search for it. In the game, where you cant hyperlink them just tell them to search the wiki for "NII Guide by Gaea". You can do the same, as I don't feel the need to shamelessly promote with a direct hyperlink. Besides, I need to work on the formatting, add some pictures, and add some other misc. information to it before it's done.

I will point out that there's a link to it in my blog along which explains why I wrote the damn thing in the first place. A direct link to that entry can be found here:
http://ami.calcobrena.com/2008/09/gu...l-isle_21.html

The guide itself outlines party formation, appropriate medicines & food, dealing with tougher enemies, effective communication, efficiently dealing with lamps, and even how people use Windower's "fillmode" to cheat! That doesn't mean I suggest cheating, I just thought I'd cover it so people don't ask stupid questions that can incriminate a party member.

Of course, I'll admit I've used windower's fillmode myself for all kinds of things including Nyzul Isle, so I really don't care if anyone else uses it or not.

[Wizerd]

It's much safer to cheat legitimately by using a shitty computer where the wall graphics won't show up properly to target mobs through walls.

[Akucaen]

Or just bring people who are too stupid to realize how you're targeting, or don't care and actually support stuff like that for the sake of avoiding stupid amounts of frustration.

[Gaea]

Haha, its pretty common knowledge in my group that I'm using fillmode, and after explaining it to a couple people over AIM, email, or vanachat, I'm not the only one in my group that does it now. I'm not trying to advocate its abuse, but occasionally I'll have someone fill in that doesn't do many or hasn't done any runs with me before and will ask stupid questions like "How did you know it was a Custard?"

I've found the best way to answer questions like these are to say things like "If you mash the tab key really fast while rotating the camera you tend to target stuff behind walls and just keep hitting it to go through monsters within range." This is something that can be done on any PS2, XBOX360, or PC, and it actually is a possible solution to why I know "Cumin Custard" is on other side of "that wall".

Of course, the rest of my party knows its because I can see the bloody thing through the god damn wall and just doesn't laughs when I lie like this.

[Vyerz]

What? No bard? Absolute not! After trying to make this work several times when I first started Nyzul Isle, and joining groups that made similar attempts, I've observed that Bard increases your chance of failing the run between 33.3% and 42.5%. If you are a newer group, I guarantee you that you will fail at least half of the time if not more. Nyzul Isle is a very unforgiving, time-restricted event. It doesn't have time for players to pay attention to where they are standing, and it doesn't have time to wait on songs. You'll notice a Bard's performance to be very sub par than it would be in a more controlled environment that involves an actual party camp. Do not take Bard, do not take Bard, do not take a Bard, do not take a Bard. Also, make sure you do not take a Bard or a Bard.

.
.
.
.
.
k. A puller with Fillmode in Nyzul makes it go like 9x(exaggeration) faster (Assuming your party knows not to stand around like idiots). They do -NOT- need to buff on non-boss floors, they don't have the time to unless the group is fighting a Defeat enemy leader floor or they're fighting a high HP NM. Brd is the ideal puller for this because they can sleep Gears on gear floors and they can buff and help with paralyna's on boss floors BUT I've been the puller on this as a Blm using blind for pulls and sleeping multiple mobs, worked almost as well except bosses didn't go as fast.

People over think the effort that should be put into nyzul isle. My group throws 4 Melee's /nin 1 drk(Stunner), 1 sam, 2 Mnk's (Chi blasts help with gear pulls or pulling hate off of a bard sometimes) and 1 Whm (sometimes a rdm, but whm is a much better healer for this because of AOE bosses and the availability of Cure V). Sometimes we cut it close but most times we finish the boss floors with 13~ minutes left.

But what I'm trying to say is... Good job with the guide, I think many people appreciate the work you've put forward in advancing the success of the general populous of this game and writing a guide.

[Gaea]

Thanks. Yeah, I know a "good bard" with "fillmode" CAN work, but me (Scholar) and the Red Mage have had no trouble sleeping anything, including gears, and we pull with blind, gravity, and sleep mobs near the group just as well as I think a bard can. I tend to give everyone AoE Stoneskin, and the Red Mage will dish out some Hastes. Unless there are some really annoying mobs involved, we usually don't have to do much curing and can focus on just buffs and pulling. With both of us having access to single target buffs and Tier 3 and Tier 4 elemental magic, sleep, sleep2, gravity, and blind, we're a pretty effective team and seem to benefit more with an extra damage dealer.

So yeah, a bard that's making a major contribution like this to speed up the run can be an asset, but even if you do have a good bard that is using windower and has access to "fillmode", this can still take a bit of practice to do well. For many parties though, a bard winds up being dead weight and the group will benefit more by having an extra damage dealer or healer (depending on what you replaced).

I've heard of people taking 3DD, 1 Stun/DD, 1 RDM, and 1 BRD and having a lot of success. I've also heard of RDM/DRK, BRD/WHM and 4 DD having great success. I've even successfully completed 5 floors with a party consisting of BRD/WHM, SCH/RDM, RDM/WHM, NIN/WAR, MNK/NIN and BLU/NIN. All three of these examples can require a level of communication and skill that you usually only find in veteran statics. That, or outrageous luck with easy floors. Pick-up parties, especially, would likely fail attempting to pull off strategies like this unless they got an easy set of floors.

I don't want to belittle the value of a good DRK that's good at stunning, either, but I generally stick to Blue Mage for this task not just because they can reliably stun more often, but also because that in the rare instance that White Magic is locked, we have a back up source of healing with Magic Fruit. There are even occasions where I'll have a DRK and a BLU, with the DRK focusing on its damage output and only resorting to using Stun to prevent really awful AoE spells or attacks.

My primary objective is to try to write something that will work for everyone with or without fillmode, though as some people might be against using it. I do tend to expand my "party formation" section with more options and details on strategy that support them.

[miokomioko]

I think you're completely wrong about the "don't bring a bard" thing. I'll just chalk it up to "bad experiences."

I think any non-20 floor can be done with a pickup group with 4 melee/nin (war/sam/mnk/blu/nin) + 1 healer (whm/rdm/sch) + 1 support/healer (brd/cor) in any combination. You could even lose 1 of the melee and go with 5 if you have some people who have experience with navigating & objectives. I think the biggest benefit of this guide for newbies (since I highly disagree with a lot of the party setup recommendations) would be the explaination of objectives (especially lamps) so they know when to split up and when to just sit their stupid ass down and wait for something to come to them so they don't run around without sneak and aggro a dozen mobs and ruin your entire run (hello bad experiences).

[Wizerd]

Telling people not to bring a bard at all is pretty wrong. They can be fine pullers even without fillmode and a bard who tries to sing on floors other than mob family floors or enemy leader foors is a silly bard. I do prefer COR though, since they can roll instantly and they last 5 minutes.

[Gaea]

I do plan to mention how a bard can be used, but in a startup group or a pick up party, itll still be something I don't suggest. I've had bard work, particularly on boss runs, but its been my experience that only bards with veteran experience in Nyzul Isle should be filling this role.

I've had numerous people who created failing pick-up parties ask me for advice, and omitting the Bard was a key factor in their newfound success.

[Tidane]

It's nice that you're trying to hard.

Just be wrong a bit less and you might be on to something.

[Samuraiking]

Is it just me or does Gaea look alot like Gaia...

[Eldelphia]

I play BRD in Nyzul, you don't need fill mode you just need commonsense. Oh wait...

BRD is one of the last jobs we'd get rid of and we have reasonable flexibility.

[Gaea]

I updated it to outline reasons why I don't suggest a bard for starter parties. If your bard doesn't fit in this category and your group does fine, that's great. These are just experiences that I've had and people I know have had and they are relatively common.

------------------------
*Because of all the constant moving around they are rendered virtually useless on many floors. Sometimes the floors they can function as pullers are few and far between.
*They can be pretty useful on mega-boss runs because there's at least one guaranteed, preconstructed battle. Unfortunately, this occurs only once every twenty floors.
*Many of them are idiots that try to do really stupid things like use [[Minstrel's Ring]]. (Trust me this happens more often than you might think!) Hey stupid, many of these floors are teeming with undead.
*They also tend to do stupid things like spam songs in the lobby and prevent a Runic Disc holder from accessing the lamp.
*An extra damage dealer can be useful on any floor that has SOMETHING to kill. A bard, however, will encounter many floors where they are better off just sitting at the Rune of Transfer and waiting for the real jobs to get things done.
*Because of all the running around, bards seem to be the most confused about their role and this confusion can be contagious.
*Finally, whenever you come across a floor where songs are restricted, (which seems to the most common restriction I've come across), the worthlessness of your Bard is just further emphasized.

-----------------------

I do plan to add serious examples of how a veteran bard can be applied to Nyzul Isle, but right now I'm trying to help starter groups create a more foolproof party and succeed in Nyzul Isle.

As I stated in my original post, most of you will get little to nothing out of this guide. If you are a competent, veteran bard with a lot of Nyzul Isle experience, this surely doesn't apply to you.

The most floors I've completed with a bard in a single tag is 6. The most I've completed without a bard is 9. The AVERAGE that I complete without a bard is probably a fraction between 6 and 7.

[Shadowrunner]

I updated it to outline reasons why I don't suggest a bard for starter parties. If your bard doesn't fit in this category and your group does fine, that's great. These are just experiences that I've had and people I know have had and they are relatively common.

------------------------
*Because of all the constant moving around they are rendered virtually useless on many floors. Sometimes the floors they can function as pullers are few and far between.
*They can be pretty useful on mega-boss runs because there's at least one guaranteed, preconstructed battle. Unfortunately, this occurs only once every twenty floors.
*Many of them are idiots that try to do really stupid things like use [[Minstrel's Ring]]. (Trust me this happens more often than you might think!) Hey stupid, many of these floors are teeming with undead.
*They also tend to do stupid things like spam songs in the lobby and prevent a Runic Disc holder from accessing the lamp.
*An extra damage dealer can be useful on any floor that has SOMETHING to kill. A bard, however, will encounter many floors where they are better off just sitting at the Rune of Transfer and waiting for the real jobs to get things done.
*Because of all the running around, bards seem to be the most confused about their role and this confusion can be contagious.
*Finally, whenever you come across a floor where songs are restricted, (which seems to the most common restriction I've come across), the worthlessness of your Bard is just further emphasized.

But this just doesn't go to be the only reason, in fact it's more irritating that you label it a bard and not a "single user" issue.

For Instance:

Step 1: A lot of floors are conjested, oftentimes you have situations where you have to kill-all, and if there's multiple mobs in the room, you can sleep them all, sing your songs, and move on before they even start on the third mob. ANY puller should know this. This is true for mages that cast AoE (RDM/WHM/SCH) as well. Any good PLAYER would know how to handle this, not just a bard.

Step 2: I don't even know how to comment on this, they're useful on every floor if they know what the hell they're doing. Black Mage is also very useful on Flan floors, but they do shit-all on the rest (This isn't true, it's a comparative example). Again, if a player knows what he's doing, there is always something to contribute.

Step 3: I use minstrels ring. Sure, there's a lot of undead floors. Guess what! Odds are half the time, you need to kill them all anyways. WHAT A GREAT WAY TO PULL THEM. And your songs are faster. Sweet jesus! You've struck gold. Make sense out of it, you'll do a lot of good. On floors where you don't have to kill all, you're either boned anyways (enemies, and facing chariots/flans/flayers, hell anything that AoE's), or you only have to kill a specific target, and the bard (or any job) can do a whole lot better than run around with low HP. Odds are, if the BRD agros, at least they can sleep it.

Step 4: I've actually had more issues with mages spaming protectra than bards hitting songs. My advise would be: Make sure all players know not to use AoE in the first room.

Step 5: If a bard is literally sitting at the RUne doing nothing, no I'll take that back, If any player is sitting by the rune literally doing nothing, they are either being instructed to do so for fast release (good), or being lazy as hell (not good). This has, once again, nothing to do with bard. Name a floor where it's best for the bard to sit there. Lamps? They can sleep most anything and shed hate in an instant. Kill all? Triple pull + songs up. I just don't follow the logic, single enemy? Great puller and can sleep uninterrupted if they do get agro.

Step 6: Confusion goes all around. I've had more instance where melees have gotten to hte mob and just sat there because they're afraid of linking, agroing, or flat out getting killed.

And the Coup-De-Grace, 7: I've run nyzul for well over a year. I've met my fair share of fun ones, no WHM on boss floors, no BLM on flan floors (most common), lowered INT, lowered AGI, hell I've even gotten a +CHR buff. I have never. Ever. run into a floor where songs were restricted. Ever. And best of all, I have a subjob, and a dagger. If there's shit-all I can do, i'll be doing it. Saying that a bard is useless because of a restriction is the most retarded thing I've ever heard. I've seen Blue magic restricted, blue mages are useless. I've seen black and white, both are useless, I've seen summoning (hah), well they still play their role. I've seen weaponskills penalized, SAM's useless. I've seen Slow, most melee are useless. I've seen cast time doubled, mage jobs are useless.

Again, it's blantant ignorance to label a single job as an issue. Every single point you bring up against them, I have personally witnessed from another job role, doing another action. It is NOT about the job, it is about teaching the players how nyzul runs. You don't need to say not to bring bard. You need to say "In the beginning room, don't use AoE, players are trying to use the chest and rune, AoE interrupts any actions being done with them.", You need to say "Consider bringing a dagger, club, or start working on your staff skills, very occasionally you might get boned with no magic", You need to say "Be prepared to plan ahead about what spells are cast when, and how you can make the time to do so"

Again, to site my group as an example.

We start the run, me and the other mage immediately cast Reraise. Shit else, everyone else is busy getting meds and preparing. We give a signal, and go to the floor. Nothing is cast save utsu and food, I run off to pull, the others either follow behind, or go their own way on a kill-all floor. Nothing is cast at all until the first mob is being fought. Obviously as puller I'm already off to get the next, the mage knows this well in advance, and the minute i bring the next mob to them (while, by the way, stating which direction i'm heading to give them ample opportunity to be prepared), the mage already knows to hit me up with some buffs while he rests.

It's pretty standard stuff, then you go into floor details.

There is absolutely no reason to say a single job is more useless than another in nyzul, everything plays a role.

[Gaea]

I'm not sure we're playing the same game. While I frequently come across undead, it's rare that I have to kill all of them.

Whle many floors may somewhat congested, that doesn't mean you'll always have to kill everything on them.

You seem to be talking about the best case scenarios for bards in Nyzul Isle.

You obviously didn't look at my guide.

Here are some party examples where I included a bard:

RDM/WHM, BLU/SCH, MNK/NIN, SAM/NIN, WAR/NIN, BRD/WHM
A similar setup to the one above that offers a Bard instead of a Thief. Setups involving a Bard won't work for every group, particularly those still learning the ropes in Nyzul Isle. However, more established groups may enjoy taking one along, particularly because they can speed up pulling and shorten the time it takes to bring down tougher monsters like "enemy leaders". They are also the only job capable of dispelling the Ice Spikes on a Soulflayer. Madrigal is pretty useful for those rare occasions you encounter Stealth Bomber Gagaroon or Gem Heister Roorooroon.
RDM/WHM, WHM/BLM, MNK/NIN, DRK/NIN, WAR/NIN, BRD/WHM
Another setup that uses a Bard that also capitalizes on the fact that the need for Stun cam be pretty uncommon. The point of this setup is to provide an option for the most popular jobs in FFXI without sacrificing Stun or damage dealing.
RDM/WHM, BRD/WHM, MNK/NIN, SAM/NIN, WAR/NIN, BLU/NIN
This setup puts the Blue Mage back on the front line. This can all be very effective, but the skill required to support a group like this is probably best left to static groups with veteran members. The Red Mage in this setup will have to keep Refresh on the Bard and the Blue Mage, and the Blue Mage will have to make sure they don't overexert their MP because they may need to assist with healing. It's important to limit the amount of damage taken as much as possible. Diamondhide and Ninjutsu play an important role in a setup like this which minimizes conventional healing. Strategically, though, this setup offers a lot, including light and dark based sleep, adequate Stun, Refresh, and plenty of damage output with 4 front line jobs using shadows. This is another setup that doesn't offer Stona so that's something to be mindful of. It's really difficult to cram Refresh, Stona, Stun, and the ability to Dispel Ice Spikes off of a Soulflayer in the same party without screwing yourself out of a damage dealer.
RDM/DRK, SCH/RDM, MNK/NIN, SAM/NIN, WAR/NIN, BRD/WHM
An example of a party setup that can offer a solution to everything but will require a Red Mage that's use to using Stun and a Bard that's used to removing debuffs from party members. This setup offers Refresh, Finale, Lullaby, Stun, Stona, Haste and AoE Stoneskin. There's a lot more room for error in this setup as it requires people to be more mindful of their subjobs. I'd only suggest doing this if you really know your BRD/WHM and RDM/DRK can work together and handle this. This is also a very awesome setup for boss runs if played correctly.


All of these examples make bard look really useful and I think you should consider reading my guide before running your yap in a shameless attempt to feel special, rather than focusing on a point that I'm trying to make that beginner and pick up groups will likely not benefit from having a bard because it's role in Nyzul Isle is a little more complex.

On the bright side, it's nice to see that you typed a nice long post that makes absolutely no sense, and you'd realize that if you didn't have the attention span of a goldfish. Consider reading other people's posts more thoroughly and try not to guess what everyone is talking about. Also, consider actually looking at the guide I'm working on before you criticize it. Obviously, from the excerpt above, I've supplied numerous examples of how a bard can work quite nicely in Nyzul Isle.

Honestly, I think that any bard should be flattered that I stressed the point that their job can't be played by an idiot in Nyzul Isle. It should be regarded as a compliment for someone to say it takes a skilled player to play a job correctly. However, if you want to insist your some kind of mindless, retarded chimp and anyone can play your job in Nyzul Isle, go right ahead.

[Thorny]

BRDs suck guys, especially with storm fife. You heard it here first =D Personally, I just pull the plain floors and keep elegy/songs up on bosses. An extra mp pool with storm fife ballads is great for fafnirs wings on lower bosses, or compensating for the loss of one melee on higher bosses through songs(while avoiding the TP moves that melee would have given). I'd much rather have RDM + BRD or SCH + BRD than RDM + SCH..

Edit: The wording on half this shit reminds me of brady guide, 'The point of this setup is to provide an option for the most popular jobs in FFXI without sacrificing Stun or damage dealing. ' lol

[Ashira]

Is it just me or does Gaea look alot like Gaia...

Only if Gaia is spelled P-o-o-f.

As to the BRD thing... my groups, which is essentially the same core most of the time... we always say BRD is useless in Nyzul cuz you're just running around too much and can't even get songs to land... and then they always make me come BRD. Go figure. /shrug

[Zidiane]

Bard has its uses and at times can hinder a group.
I usualy run with.
Rdm/whm x2, war, thf, blu, bard. In two groups (Rdm, War, Thf) (Rdm, Blu) With the bard roaming between each party buffing.
2nd set up which we use at times.

Rdm/whmx2, warx3, thfx1 (Rdm, War, War) (Rdm, War, Thf)

So I would say, you don't need a bard as much as you need one. I.e can live without, or go with one. It isn't a group breaker or maker.

What makes nyzul is sheer common sense to not sit idle when you should be pressing on with the task at hand.

I'm quite shocked to see no other mention of people using two groups instead of one. It greatly cuts down time on Kill-All floors.

[*Blaize*]

Black Mage

Unless they bring medicines and/or buy them out of the chest at the beginning of the run, they'll tend to be useless dead weight that spends too much time recovering MP. Assassin's Drink and Oracle's Drink are not an even an option when doing a boss run. The fact is, it's hard for a black mage to find a good rhythm for dealing out damage without rapidly depleting their MP or getting themselves killed.

I agree with you on this, BLM as DD is pretty useless except that very occasional pudding floor. I don't see myself as a dead weight though.

With a setup of WHM/SCH, BLM/WHM (me), WAR, WAR, DRK and THF (and occasionally BRD if THF isn't online) I'm the puller. With access to 4 sleep spells, bind and stun I can manage to pull a lot of mobs at the same time and sleep them close to where my PT is, so they don't waste time running in circles.

/RDM might be better for some mobs, but a Silena/Paralyna/Cure never hurts. So far we're at 20, and failed like once or twice the first runs because people weren't sure on what to do.

[Therin]

I read your guide and it sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about over half the time. Just saying.

For example, every single one of your "balanced party setups" blows ass, and not because none of them have BRD - just because the party setup in general blows ass. SAM/NIN? DRK/NIN? BLU/NIN? DRG/NIN? Are you serious?