Murderer vs. Corsair's +1 for QD

[Nekio]

So I've been patiently waiting for the latent stats for the Supremacy line of gear to be found, since I lost lot on the only one that has dropped for our LS so far ><. According to otherWiki, the set grants 6 to each of the listed stats. Currently, the best gun for QD has been Corsair's +1, due to the 42 base dmg. To compare the two, I did some quick math assuming some of the basic QD gear in typical situations (weather/day bonuses will only enhance any differences between the two in terms of damage).

For gear, let's assume the following:

HQ Staff = 1.15 Multiplier Bonus
Corsair's Tricorne (+1) = Base Dmg +10
Moldy Earring = MAB +5
Uggalepih Pendant = MAB +8
Denali Kecks = MAB +3

The formula for QD damage is Base Damage x Staff Bonus x (1 + MAB/100) x Weather/Day bonuses, where
Base Damage = 2 x (Gun DMG + Ammo DMG) + AF Hat Bonus

Murderer + Supremacy (DMG 38, MAB +6):
(2 x (38 + 70) + 10) x (1.15) x (1 + 22/100) = 315 damage

Corsair's Gun +1 (DMG 42):
(2 x (42 + 70) +10) x (1.15) x (1 + 16/100) = 312 damage

Assuming you're in a BLM party with Wizard's Roll, average of about MAB +10, you get:

Murderer + Supremacy + Wizard's Roll (DMG 38, MAB +16):
(2 x (38 + 70) + 10) x (1.15) x (1 + 32/100) = 341 damage

Corsair's Gun +1 + Wizard's Roll (DMG 42, MAB +10):
(2 x (42 + 70) +10) x (1.15) x (1 + 26/100) = 338 damage

So, it basically looks like Murderer + Supremacy wins out for QD by a very small margin, independent of how much MAB you have. Keep in mind that you need to give up some QD accuracy by dropping your second earring slot for Supremacy (ie. a Drone, etc). I'm not sure if the STR+6 would offset the 4 less DMG for WS, but I bet it would, especially with the extra RACC and RATT, and the STR and ATT also helps out melee hits. Or in more practical terms, if you're going to WS you'll probly be using Martial.

[Kerberoz]

Should be novio + moldavite + corsair's+1 vs novio + supremacy + murderer.... in which case the former wins.

[Nekio]

CORs don't have Novios. BLMs have Novios and happen to also level COR, hence I discluded it from the discussion. It's like putting a BST into an Adaberk.

But if you insist, having a Novio tips the balance in favor of Corsair's +1 by about 9 damage before day/weather effects. Either way, the gun is pretty much a wash when it comes to QD, but costs hundreds of thousands of gil less, actually has an AH history, and possibly has better DoT/WS potential (that's a thread for someone else). Oh, it also has a way cooler name.

[Starr]

I know a COR with one

[Kilhart]

CORs don't have Novios. BLMs have Novios and happen to also level COR, hence I discluded it from the discussion. It's like putting a BST into an Adaberk.

But if you insist, having a Novio tips the balance in favor of Corsair's +1 by about 9 damage before day/weather effects. Either way, the gun is pretty much a wash when it comes to QD, but costs hundreds of thousands of gil less, actually has an AH history, and possibly has better DoT/WS potential (that's a thread for someone else). Oh, it also has a way cooler name.

I'm a COR with novio. My BLM is 69. thx.

Really, the only way to omit a COR from novio altogether is if they're in a LS that doesn't allow a COR to ever get novio over a BLM, regardless of how much they've contributed to the LS. If you're avid enough about the job to want to optimize your QD, it's not impossible to get a novio. Hell, the only reason I really started leveling BLM was because back on Valefor, my LS had BLM priority for novio. I only continue leveling it so I'm not as much of an asshole for having it on my COR.

Edit: Also, corsair's+1 shouldn't even be mentioned as a WS choice.

[Kerberoz]

Yeah, max QD damage really only matters solo, otherwise you'll want Martial any time you're using any weapon skill ever.

[Nekio]

I'm a COR with novio. My BLM is 69. thx.

Congrats on being an exception to the rule, I guess? My LS let me lot Adaberk for my BST even though I don't have DRK or WAR leveled. Therefore, all equip discussions for BST should revolve around BSTs with Adaberk.

Yes, my LS puts BLM priority over COR for Novio, so short of paying a legit shell 20mil+ gil for 10 extra QD damage, it's not going to happen unless I win it on BLM. I guess my LS would give Novio to a COR over a BLM if we still didn't have a dozen BLMs with awesome attendance who needed it.

Yeah, max QD damage really only matters solo, otherwise you'll want Martial any time you're using any weapon skill ever.

In general I agree with this statement, but has any extensive testing been done on Leaden Salute? I'm not convinced that the formula's posted for it are 100% accurate (ie., wtf is 2*(AGI-EnemyINT)+[fTP*(75+2+[.83*[.3*AGI]])] is this about?). For high lvl stuff, I'm interested in how far ignoring DEF can go for this WS.

[Atreides]

so without the pointless bickering (i have a novio too, but I had blm75 before I capped cor), supremacy+murderer is a reasonable substitute for corsairs who don't have a novio and don't feel like having a corsair's gun HQ'd, thank you for testing.

has anyone confirmed that corsair's tricorne +1 has an identical effect on QD as the NQ ? (and no, "other AF doesn't do that" doesn't count as actually knowing that it does/doesn't) Just curious, I'll probably uprgrade hat first regardless (provided the apollyon item ever drops) but I had some faint sliver of hope that AF+1 would be at least slightly better for QD than the NQ.

[Suiram]

Murderer + Supremacy is MAB+2, a friend got it and tested it for me like a week after it came out. Also your math is off since you're not flooring between staff and MAB.

Edit: http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/2224581-post131.html

[Kerberoz]

Even for Leaden, you'd want to use Martial for the damage mod. I doubt the agi on peacemaker would be better.

I haven't been able to find any HNM that Leaden actually lands on consistently, though >.> seems way easier to land Slug/Detonator for more damage. Leaden's great for invincible/pd and things like Nyzul flans.

[Kilhart]

Congrats on being an exception to the rule, I guess? My LS let me lot Adaberk for my BST even though I don't have DRK or WAR leveled. Therefore, all equip discussions for BST should revolve around BSTs with Adaberk.

Your discussion was about Murderer vs. Corsair's +1. Thus, I assumed you would be comparing the optimal setups for both. In fact, in all of the topics I've ever read about QD across BG and KI, yours is the first to omit novio. I'm by no means saying that novio is required for COR, and I'm not saying that murderer/supremacy is bad for QD, but your argument is flawed if you're assuming corsair's+1/moldy/AGI earring as the default. Sure, you could make the argument that it's more commonly seen than corsair's+1/moldy/novio, but with the rarity of corsair's+1, I'd commend you if you could even procure a sample size larger than 10 to make that assumption.

Edit:

In general I agree with this statement, but has any extensive testing been done on Leaden Salute? I'm not convinced that the formula's posted for it are 100% accurate (ie., wtf is 2*(AGI-EnemyINT)+[fTP*(75+2+[.83*[.3*AGI]])] is this about?). For high lvl stuff, I'm interested in how far ignoring DEF can go for this WS.

The 75+2 refers to the (Level+2) value that's used in the standard magic WS damage calculation. The remainder of the equation resembles the standard equation, as well (save the 2*(AGI-EnemyINT) part), but yes, I agree in that we should consider more testing before the equation is finalized. I haven't tried Leaden Salute much on HNMs, sadly, but on Ix, it seems to be more effort than it's worth. I've tried it on multiple occasions, and it was resisted to hell almost every time. I'm looking into trying it on wyrms, but there doesn't seem to be much time to TP properly on adds (if there are any) while keeping up our standard responsibilities and QD, I've found.

[Nekio]

Murderer + Supremacy is MAB+2, a friend got it and tested it for me like a week after it came out. Also your math is off since you're not flooring between staff and MAB.

Hmm, that's the first I've seen of MAB+2. As for the exact math, the main point I was trying to make was that (assuming the possibly incorrect MAB+6) Murderer would be essentially a wash compared to Corsair's +1 when it came to QD builds. Can you possibly get some exact numbers from those tests that showed MAB+2?

Your discussion was about Murderer vs. Corsair's +1. Thus, I assumed you would be comparing the optimal setups for both. In fact, in all of the topics I've ever read about QD across BG and KI, yours is the first to omit novio.

I think you have me mixed up with someone else, I don't post on KI >.> At any rate, I tried to do these calc's with a "typical maxed" setup, not an ideal setup. In an absolutely maxed QD gearset, and assuming that the MAB bonus is only +2, you're still only looking at a 16 point advantage for Corsair's +1, though that bonus could be amplified by weather/day/enemy type/etc.

[Kilhart]

I think you have me mixed up with someone else, I don't post on KI >.> At any rate, I tried to do these calc's with a "typical maxed" setup, not an ideal setup. In an absolutely maxed QD gearset, and assuming that the MAB bonus is only +2, you're still only looking at a 16 point advantage for Corsair's +1, though that bonus could be amplified by weather/day.

I didn't mean that you were a KI poster. I was just referring to the QD topics posted both here and on KI. I agree with you in that the difference between Murderer/Novio/Supremacy and Corsair's+1/Novio/Moldy is somewhat small, though.

[Kilhart]

has anyone confirmed that corsair's tricorne +1 has an identical effect on QD as the NQ ? (and no, "other AF doesn't do that" doesn't count as actually knowing that it does/doesn't) Just curious, I'll probably uprgrade hat first regardless (provided the apollyon item ever drops) but I had some faint sliver of hope that AF+1 would be at least slightly better for QD than the NQ.

Yep. Identical effects (aside from the 4AGI for extra QD acc). 224 with Corsair's+1/Steel naked, 234 with AF+1 hat.

[Suiram]

Hmm, that's the first I've seen of MAB+2. As for the exact math, the main point I was trying to make was that (assuming the possibly incorrect MAB+6) Murderer would be essentially a wash compared to Corsair's +1 when it came to QD builds. Can you possibly get some exact numbers from those tests that showed MAB+2?

I don't have screenshots or anything from the test, nor did I write it down. I wasn't even in the same zone, I was in /tell "get naked with gun, okay quick draw, what'd you get? okay put on the earring, okay quick draw again, what'd you get? okay thanks". The result was MAB+2, but I guess you just have to trust that I know what that looks like unless I can bug him to test it again soon. At least for now maybe trust that I'm more likely to be right than the DRK friend of a friend of the guy on the other wiki talk page?

[Atreides]

Yep. Identical effects (aside from the 4AGI for extra QD acc). 224 with Corsair's+1/Steel naked, 234 with AF+1 hat.

I suppose I'll hold out hope that Death Penalty at least adds an extra charge then ;/

[Nekio]

At least for now maybe trust that I'm more likely to be right than the DRK friend of a friend of the guy on the other wiki talk page?

Indeed I do. I was just trying to figure out if maybe the base dmg was low enough to give a range of MAB that could include higher values. Oh well, I'm stuck with disappointment. Such a good concept for a weapon system, too.

[Suiram]

Indeed I do. I was just trying to figure out if maybe the base dmg was low enough to give a range of MAB that could include higher values. Oh well, I'm stuck with disappointment. Such a good concept for a weapon system, too.

The difference between MAB+2 and MAB+6 (starting with 0 other MAB) will cause a difference in final damage provided the base damage is at least 17, which it obviously would be in this case. In any event, went out tonight to get your screenshot proof, COR/NIN with Murderer, Steel Bullets and no other gear in first shot, then with earring in second.

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/4...pmabzj1.th.jpg

216 * 1.02 gives 220 dmg, whereas 1.06 would have been 228.

[Nekio]

That's too bad. Thanks for the tests, Suiram (and Chubbs). I'll fix the wiki. Looks like under maxed QD MAB gear you'll be looking at 16 point swing in favor of Corsair's +1, and a little less than that if no Novio.

Because of the gimpness of Leaden Salute on most mobs, it doesn't seem like there's much use at all for that set.