Putting this shit to rest: FFXI "Exploits"

[BRP]

Not a surprise that the MMO-workers of Blue Gartr are incapable of understanding games. This is more than an issue of "semantics lol," as usual.

So let me just say it straight: Everything you can do in a game, any game, is an "exploit" or everything you can do is not an exploit. (Let's just the say the latter)

The difference between Final Fantasy XI and most other games(be it videogame or not) is that FFXI has a policing body(Square Enix and their Game Masters) enforcing more than just the rules of the game itself. I say "more than just the rules" because videogames already police themselves in a sense. You can't ever do more than what the rules let you do. The game ARE the rules and a player can never escape them(or do things beyond the grasp of the rules) until he stops playing.

So is killing AV with blah-blah an evil exploit? Just as much as WALKING is. Trying to justify it by saying "It is harder than Kraken DRKs!" is retarded. Trying to bash it by saying "It is easier than straight fighting it" is also just as retarded. I hope this is understood, because now I want to talk about SE again.

Is SE "wrong" for doing this? No as it is their game with their game design, but you are free to dislike it(though hopefully as a critic, not as a crybaby slave.) MMOs, and this is especially true for FFXI, are in a situation where you can only play it in one spot. For basketball you don't need to follow NBA-specific rules, for Super Smash Bros Melee you don't need to follow tournament rules, but for FFXI you NEED to follow SE's extra set of rules. You can't even play older versions(each update in someway equivalent to expansions and sequels) of FFXI. Until there is a FFXI off-line or private/hacked servers this is just the way it is and the only setting of any sort of FFXI criticism. (You could say that SSBMelee with and without tournament rules(or any kind of mod or personal set of rules) are different versions of a game, but you can't say it for FFXI.)

Considering that, then you must add this "SE might ban me" factor to the equation. So when speaking of Salvage bans and anything similar the only criticism you should be giving the dudes who got banned is "It was obvious you were going to get banned, you misjudged the weight of the deed" or something of that nature. Any other sort of reply is scruby faggotry, period.

For the ADD crowd who can only digest 1-2 sentences every hour: Everything is equally "morally acceptable" and "fair" until SE randomly bans you for it. Nothing is against the rules because you can only follow rules in videogames. Now never ever argue about this again.

I didn't want to post this in that other thread, because I figure I would be aiding a derail.

[Pikarya]

Good morning Vietnam.

[Linliel]

Good argument but yeah good luck getting any of those qqers to listen

[Mizango]

BRP droppin' knowledge.

[tyven]

did he post this in spam or did it get moved here from advanced?

[Mizango]

BRP = Banned for BRPing if there were actually posted.

[Krye]

So BRP is a cheater as well as a faggot, thanks for letting us know.

[Antithesis]

$10 bucks says if BRP was to make this thread in Advanced and discuss this with others; he would get a temp ban for "trolling" and "brping."

Apparently, when BRP discusses something, he is almost always trolling in Advance's eyes.

[tyven]

they fear his superior intellect, brp is to be loved and embraced not feared.

[Cheerios]

the game are bad anyways

[Alleya]

Everything is equally "morally acceptable" and "fair" until SE randomly bans you for it. Nothing is against the rules because you can only follow rules in videogames. Now never ever argue about this again.

This is only true in a mechanistic sense. Games are rules, yes, and what's referred to as cheats in video games has always meant something that lets you operate outside of the normal limitations of the rules. Infinite lives, memory hacks to max out money, etc. These things let you bypass the normal limitations of the game in a way that is advantageous to you. I think you would agree with me on this.

BUT. You have to take into account that there is also a communal aspect of MMOs like in all other games with more than one player. In these instances, you are entering into a social agreement where everyone who plays agrees to play by the rules by the nature of joining the game. This is not an explicitly stated contract, it is just something that is understood as a matter of course in social interaction. When you and I sit down to a game of scrabble, both of us, knowing the rules of the game, have already agreed that we cannot use proper names in order to score points. If I use proper names, you will rightly call me out for cheating. The same concept exists in an MMO. The publisher has implemented certain limitations on the players, and our acceptance of those limitations are implicit, socially, by the very nature of the fact that we are playing. If someone does something that clearly circumvents those limitations that we are all thought to have agreed upon, for instance duping items, that is by definition cheating.

I think you're making this post in response to some kind of new FFXI drama that I'm totally ignorant of so I'm not totally clear where you're coming from on this, but as far as your thesis goes I think you need to consider the social aspect of multiplayer gaming as it regards to cheating. In the case of the salvage dupe bans, I think people were more outraged by the severity of what happened and the extremely long delay between when the exploit was discovered and when something was done about it. Only a few retards actually thought it wasn't cheating.

[Beckwin]

I think BRP makes the distinction between abusing an obvious glitch versus what he's talking about, which is namely employing certain strategies that are totally within the game's parameters (i.e. KC drk zerg, walls, zombie tactics, logging out, etc).

[Alleya]

I think BRP makes the distinction between abusing an obvious glitch versus what he's talking about, which is namely employing certain strategies that are totally within the game's parameters (i.e. KC drk zerg, walls, zombie tactics, logging out, etc).

Ah. Yeah I see that now that you point it out. It was hard to tell. Maybe that's it. In which case I would agree that strategy isn't cheating and people should stuff it.

[BRP]

This is only true in a mechanistic sense. Games are rules, yes, and what's referred to as cheats in video games has always meant something that lets you operate outside of the normal limitations of the rules. Infinite lives, memory hacks to max out money, etc. These things let you bypass the normal limitations of the game in a way that is advantageous to you. I think you would agree with me on this.

There is only the mechanistic sense when it comes to rules. There is the only one set of limitations(normal) and you can't bypass them.

That said cheating is different from "doing an exploit." I am unsure if your examples are cheating because they are very vague. For example: Obtaining infinite lives in Super Mario Bros via infinite koopashell trap is not cheating. (UNLESS someone decides to ban it in some sort of Super Mario Bros tournament or MMO, lol.)

BUT. You have to take into account that there is also a communal aspect of MMOs like in all other games with more than one player. In these instances, you are entering into a social agreement where everyone who plays agrees to play by the rules by the nature of joining the game.

No such additional "social agreement" is necessary in the example you bring up. When you break the rules of a board game(practically impossible in a videogame) you are no longer playing that game.

You are right in that SE decides what is cheating, may it be duping or whatever. I hope you understand though, that it is only cheating because SE says so. Thus anything no matter how vile is not cheating until they say so. Even two different types of duping. Whether you should take part in some new kind of duping is going to be decided on your on personal judgment of risk vs reward. This is what I meant with taking the SE banning process into consideration.

Also we make no agreement to the other players in order to play FFXI, we make only make an agreement to SE.

I am tempted to talk about cheating now, but in other games exploits are never policed as absolute like the way they are in FFXI/MMOs so it would be off-topic.

Also I am assuming a glitch is different than an exploit. I don't know if making the distinction will confuse people. It certainly does in fighting games.

[Cheerios]

No such thing as exploits. "Clever use of game mechanics"

[BRP]

They don't even have to be clever.

[Antithesis]

From Wikipedia:

Cheating is an act of lying, deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition. Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others, [1] Cheating implies the breaking of rules. The term "cheating" is less applicable to the breaking of laws, as illegal activities are referred to by specific legal terminology such as fraud or corruption. Cheating is a primordial economic act: getting more for less, often used when referring to marital infidelity. A person who is guilty of cheating is generally referred to as a cheat (British English), or a cheater (American English).

So, let me take what BRP said, apply it to this, and make an example. You cant break the rules in a Video Game because the only rules you can follow are what you can and cannot do. Anything is fair game because there is no precedent. Actually, let me clarify that, the only precedent in a game is the game itself.

So then BRP, correct me if I am wrong but, would the only way to consider someone "cheating" in a videogame is if they are using an outside source (EX: Gameshark) to alter the rules of the game? (Giving maximum items, adding characters that you CANNOT normally play in the game without using the external source, etc.)

[BRP]

Pretty much. They are literally adding rules with gameshark. Which changes the game into another game.

[Antithesis]

(Probably restating something that was already said but: ) So then, the only difference in an MMORPG is that the precedent that determines what exactly is "cheating" or an "exploit" is the company who wants to decide that the former two are so. As far as the game is concerned, it is perfectly legal?

[BRP]

Yeah, pretty much. Just as important to note is that we, the players, can't play without their additional set of rules. Unlike other games where you are completely free to do what you like, even cheat/add rules/modify.

Though it is also important to note that using the term exploit like this isn't useful at all. I mean with it side-by-side with cheating. It should be used when you are saying what portion of the game you are exploiting and it should never be in a negative light. In example: "We exploited AV's lack of draw distance." "We exploited the monster's elemental weakness." Here we see exploitation as an important part of strategy.

Also I didn't read the wikipedia quote at all.