Do you think SE is involved enough in the community?

[Eanae]

First and foremost, this is not a complaint or a whine thread. This thread is meant to help SE out with how we, the players, believe they as a company are doing in outlining their goals to us and the FFXIV community at large. I think BG as a whole can agree that FFXIV has both it's perks and flaws, and while it still plays like a game in beta, SE has shown seemingly that they care all of a sudden. With detailed update notes months in advanced, developer commentary on features we are unsure of, and even a letter from the director it seems like SE has maybe learned from past mistakes of remaining in the shadows like FFXI. From reading on irc and through the various complaint threads, it's obvious people still have their issues with the game, but that's not what this thread is about. My question to you BG, to possibly to help SE out, is do you think SE's community involvement is enough? What do you think SE could do better to help you regain or keep trust in what they're doing with this game?

Personally, I'd like to see more of these ask the developer spots. SE has never been one to post on forums, and while I think it'd be nice to get some answers here on BG, the developer blogs have been a nice replacement. I think just a little more involvement and SE can slowly get XIV onto the track of what this game was supposed to be.

[Hyan]

They can keep this up, but honestly I also don't care if they don't. This PR stunt came at the right time, but once the game becomes "good enough" I can see them not caring about this stuff as much again.

Just give me a good game with diverse content, the rest doesn't matter to me.

[Cichy]

They can keep this up, but honestly I also don't care if they don't. This PR stunt came at the right time, but once the game becomes "good enough" I can see them not caring about this stuff as much again.

Just give me a good game with diverse content, the rest doesn't matter to me.

I was thinking same thing. If the reviews were not as bad as they are they wouldn't tell us shit and like in FFXI they'd throw us content now and then and have us figure it out.

[Achitophel]

They can keep this up, but honestly I also don't care if they don't. This PR stunt came at the right time, but once the game becomes "good enough" I can see them not caring about this stuff as much again.

Just give me a good game with diverse content, the rest doesn't matter to me.

This.

[Blasta]

They can keep this up, but honestly I also don't care if they don't. This PR stunt came at the right time, but once the game becomes "good enough" I can see them not caring about this stuff as much again.

This.

Double-Up, This.

[Dooom]

Yesterday was damage control from SE, no denying it. The high levels of dissatisfaction right now mean they needed to come out and say something like they did. So right now, with confidence low, they need to be more involved. Once the game gets going properly, it won't be as important.

[Elrina]

They can keep this up, but honestly I also don't care if they don't. This PR stunt came at the right time, but once the game becomes "good enough" I can see them not caring about this stuff as much again.

Just give me a good game with diverse content, the rest doesn't matter to me.

"Not this."

I think they should keep doing what they're doing, and possibly ramp it up just a bit and give us information on issues they know are concerns/feel are problems but that they aren't going to be including in the next update because it's priority isn't as high. That way we have a comprehensive list of everything (or close) that they are aware of and will be continuing to work on even after "insert next update here" patches the stuff they are currently working on. They did good including a partial list of these things, but it was by no means as comprehensive as the list of the actual fixes.

Also, getting what we just did (an extended version of the Ask the Devs and the note from the director) maybe once a month, and that the regular Ask the Devs are given to us maybe 1-2 times a week on a regular schedule, instead of updating the Lodestone with them randomly. That would be a nice way of getting regular, reliable information from them about what's going on with the game, and isn't so often that it would be problematic to do at all. This way we know as the game continues to develop that they are still listening to us and aren't doing exactly what was suggested above, responding when there are massive problems and going back to being silent and ignoring us when they aren't receiving overwhelmingly negative feedback.

It may not be as important or "necessary" after they've fixed all of the problems that made this launch horrible, but I truly believe people would put more faith in them to actually take care of issues and be more reasonable if they did. We want them listening and adjusting things in XIV that are not good even after this mess is resolved, from balance issues to them not adding content like Absolute Virtue and then mocking us with it for years.

[Eaglestrike]

"Not this."

I think they should keep doing what they're doing, and possibly ramp it up just a bit and give us information on issues they know are concerns/feel are problems but that they aren't going to be including in the next update because it's priority isn't as high. That way we have a comprehensive list of everything (or close) that they are aware of and will be continuing to work on even after "insert next update here" patches the stuff they are currently working on. They did good including a partial list of these things, but it was by no means as comprehensive as the list of the actual fixes.

Also, getting what we just did (an extended version of the Ask the Devs and the note from the director) maybe once a month, and that the regular Ask the Devs are given to us maybe 1-2 times a week on a regular schedule, instead of updating the Lodestone with them randomly. That would be a nice way of getting regular, reliable information from them about what's going on with the game, and isn't so often that it would be problematic to do at all. This way we know as the game continues to develop that they are still listening to us and aren't doing exactly what was suggested above, responding when there are massive problems and going back to being silent and ignoring us when they aren't receiving overwhelmingly negative feedback.

It may not be as important or "necessary" after they've fixed all of the problems that made this launch horrible, but I truly believe people would put more faith in them to actually take care of issues and be more reasonable if they did. We want them listening and adjusting things in XIV that are not good even after this mess is resolved, from balance issues to them not adding content like Absolute Virtue and then mocking us with it for years.

This. Simply them acknowledging certain things as issues to fix "down the line" would help my faith in them being able to handle the game better. Especially with the whole priority system. Fix the glaring and/or easy issues asap and be aware of what you need to fix in that next update...and let us know what those are. There were a large number of glaring issues in FFXI that took years to fix or simply didn't get fixed at all. Those issues are things that discussion between developers and the community can fix.

[Hyan]

This way we know as the game continues to develop that they are still listening to us and aren't doing exactly what was suggested above, responding when there are massive problems and going back to being silent and ignoring us when they aren't receiving overwhelmingly negative feedback.

They are always responding to us. Every time an update hits, we know whether they are listening to us or not. There is no need for "Ask the Devs" or "Message from the Director". Right now it is more important because many people are not playing the game because it is fun to them, and there is a significant amount of people that are standing by, seeing where the game is headed.

Frankly, when a game is fun it should be played. If it is not fun, it should not be played, especially when the only thing keeping you subscribed month after another is fluff like this or waiting for some "miracle" patch.

This kind of talk may not be something that the average poster on BG (or any other forum) understands ("hardcore" often translates to "addiction", so they stick around regardless of whether the game is "fun" to them or not) but it is the rational approach.

When the game is fun, I'll play it. When it gets boring or I'll become dissatisfied with where the game is headed, I'll quit. I made the mistake not to do that in XI, but I sure as hell won't be repeating it here.

This kind of thing won't make the game fun, and it won't stop the game from being boring. Thus it is not necessary nor needed in the long term.

And again, I am only speaking about the two-sided communication seen this week. Listening is always crucial. And I've never had a big problem with that, knowing their limitations.

[Skotty]

Until they answer the questions WE ask, it's not really involvement. It's a statement when you answer your own questions.

But I like the detailed notes about upcoming updates so I'll wait and see if they keep it up.

[Amastacia]

I don't want their only regular communications to be update teasers and patch notes.

I'd much rather have them continue to communicate, let us know more about the game's systems, and long term plans they have in mind.

Sure, keep some mystery, don't give us the exact equation for damage or whatever, but Ask the Devs and whatnot are much better than official info trickling out in JP language books and JP fanfests, while we get squat.

[Elrina]

They are always responding to us. Every time an update hits, we know whether they are listening to us or not. There is no need for "Ask the Devs" or "Message from the Director". Right now it is more important because many people are not playing the game because it is fun to them, and there is a significant amount of people that are standing by, seeing where the game is headed.

This kind of thing won't make the game fun, and it won't stop the game from being boring. Thus it is not necessary nor needed in the long term.

But that's the very problem, it wasn't enough in FFXI, and it isn't enough now. Because it isn't always a clear sign of whether they're listening to us or not.

What I think you're mistaking is the long term view here. You view these as "fluff", and that they aren't necessary. Over the long term development of FFXIV, there are (at least) two divergent paths they could take: 1 - Good, regular communication with the players. Keeping us informed, replying to feedback, making changes based on it. 2 - Reverting to the way they treated communication in XI, not listening to feedback, leaving things unfixed for years and more or less mocking our desire for information on some things or see them changed.

You see the first path as fluff and unnecessary. Yet in a year from now, in three or four years from now, Final Fantasy XIV will be a very different game based on which path they take. So in the short view, it may not immediately affect things when we see these posts every week in-game, but over the long term it will make an enormous difference and not leave us with something that makes us say things like

When the game is fun, I'll play it. When it gets boring or I'll become dissatisfied with where the game is headed, I'll quit. I made the mistake not to do that in XI, but I sure as hell won't be repeating it here.

We should not need to feel skeptical that they will listen to us, or that they will implement changes in a horrible way and that we'll still be left wanting. They've made a good start, they need to keep this up and emphasize it.

There still needs to be a public venue of some kind for direct feedback from us to them, even now. They've said they don't want to moderate a forum, ok. They could open up a comments section below each of their main update posts on Lodestone, or at least below each "Ask the Devs" post each week. Not anonymous, requires being logged into the Lodestone, which requires having a copy of the game and an account to log in with, in order to post, and it mentions our name and server in the post (or just have the names link back to our Lodestone profiles). This is also linked to our accounts, and it would be easy for them to put restrictions in place that would prevent excessive trolling (i.e. able to suspend accounts for spamming or things they would suspend people for in-game for doing in say/shout channels).

Then, maybe once a week, they could give us a blurb based on the theme of the previous weeks comments (even if there are more than one Ask the Devs updates each week). The theme might be that they forgot to mention "x" issue, or that "y" thing is still unresolved, or that "z" content is really unbalanced. It could be that we're grateful (like many of us were after seeing those posts yesterday morning), or the theme could just be that we flamed the ever loving shit out of them over something. That would give us somewhere to give them direct feedback, and would let us know they're paying attention to it.

[Lucavi]

I don't want their only regular communications to be update teasers and patch notes.

I'd much rather have them continue to communicate, let us know more about the game's systems, and long term plans they have in mind.

Sure, keep some mystery, don't give us the exact equation for damage or whatever, but Ask the Devs and whatnot are much better than official info trickling out in JP language books and JP fanfests, while we get squat.

Pretty much this. Call it "fluff" if you want until its actually implemented, but they stand to make a lot more money pandering to those who like "fluff" than those who don't. Those who don't like the fluff are typically all still playing anyway, so catering to them (by doing nothing and performing business as usual) does nothing extra for their bottom line. In the end, its all about subs and profit: it would behoove them to spend a little extra effort for a lot of extra potential profit.

[Snowknight26]

The last option makes no sense.

[Shade]

If the game is running smoothly with no real pressing issues, and patches come out regularly (with notes detailing what has been changed/added), in a timely manner, you know what...? I don't really care if I hear much beforehand, or if they open official dialogues with the community, so long as things get done and the game is fun. Sometimes the dev team knows better, and you can't make all of the players happy all of the time.

But if the game is buggy, if there are big glaring flaws in simple intuitive playability, or big issues that need to be addressed... then yeah. I wanna know what the plan is. Give me a timeline. Let me know what things are being worked on, that they ARE in fact, being worked on, and how soon I can expect them to be improved. Is it a bug or a feature? I don't think that's too much to ask.

Guess which one I think applies to SE right now?

[Hyan]

What I think you're mistaking is the long term view here. You view these as "fluff", and that they aren't necessary. Over the long term development of FFXIV, there are (at least) two divergent paths they could take: 1 - Good, regular communication with the players. Keeping us informed, replying to feedback, making changes based on it. 2 - Reverting to the way they treated communication in XI, not listening to feedback, leaving things unfixed for years and more or less mocking our desire for information on some things or see them changed.

The problem here is that you think both paths are separate and there is no middleground, which is false.

Mainly, why must they "keep us informed and reply to feedback" while "listening to feedback". You can have one without the other. And not to mention, one of them is fluff while the other is crucial for the game's success.

Without these posts on the lodestone, the game would have still received the same exact updates come November and December.

We should not need to feel skeptical that they will listen to us, or that they will implement changes in a horrible way and that we'll still be left wanting.

Like I said, if the game is fun it doesn't really matter. And the inevitable will happen regardless of if they keep us informed that it will, indeed, happen, or not. It will simply confirm that they are or aren't listening to us a bit ahead of time. Yay.

There still needs to be a public venue of some kind for direct feedback from us to them, even now. They've said they don't want to moderate a forum, ok. They could open up a comments section below each of their main update posts on Lodestone, or at least below each "Ask the Devs" post each week. Not anonymous, requires being logged into the Lodestone, which requires having a copy of the game and an account to log in with, in order to post, and it mentions our name and server in the post (or just have the names link back to our Lodestone profiles). This is also linked to our accounts, and it would be easy for them to put restrictions in place that would prevent excessive trolling (i.e. able to suspend accounts for spamming or things they would suspend people for in-game for doing in say/shout channels).

This sounds pretty good, and would make their work easier.

Then, maybe once a week, they could give us a blurb based on the theme of the previous weeks comments (even if there are more than one Ask the Devs updates each week). The theme might be that they forgot to mention "x" issue, or that "y" thing is still unresolved, or that "z" content is really unbalanced. It could be that we're grateful (like many of us were after seeing those posts yesterday morning), or the theme could just be that we flamed the ever loving shit out of them over something. That would give us somewhere to give them direct feedback, and would let us know they're paying attention to it.

But this not so much. Cool I guess, but not necessary.


And while you are always talking about maximizing profits Lucavi, I am surprised that you are not supporting SE in their endeavour. If they can get away with releasing the game in this condition while making some extra profit at the same time, according to you they should do it. Of course it's risky, but if it works it'll pay off. And if fluff like this can make it happen, they sure as hell know how to do it.

Make the boat float with fluff until it's ready while reaping some extra revenue from those who care. Sly.

[Lucavi]

And while you are always talking about maximizing profits Lucavi, I am surprised that you are not supporting SE in their endeavour. If they can get away with releasing the game in this condition while making some extra profit at the same time, according to you they should do it. Of course it's risky, but if it works it'll pay off. And if fluff like this can make it happen, they sure as hell know how to do it.
Make the boat float with fluff until it's ready while reaping some extra revenue from those who care. Sly.

You call it fluff and believe that it's fluff. I call it fluff mockingly, but I have no problem with SE making extra coin from talking to their subscribers. None at all. What they did here, with this launch, was not smart. Launching early, launching poorly, and then having to quickly hit the panic button, divvy out some extra months for initial subscribers, was not smart. They're doing damage control right now, and I have no problem with that. If it works out for them, more power to them, but as I always say, first impressions are always the biggest impressions. We'll see how it all ends up.

I'm tired right now, so if that doesn't directly address your statement, I apologize in advance.

[Elrina]

The problem here is that you think both paths are separate and there is no middleground, which is false.

Mainly, why must they "keep us informed and reply to feedback" while "listening to feedback". You can have one without the other. And not to mention, one of them is fluff while the other is crucial for the game's success.

Without these posts on the lodestone, the game would have still received the same exact updates come November and December.

Obviously there are more, that's why I put in "(at least) two paths", those are just the most clear and evident.

And yes, you can have one without the other, but without updates from them we may just be commenting on what's already being worked on, or ignoring smaller things in favor of more obvious ones because we don't know what's being done. Ultimately it might suffice, if we actually saw timely responses, but if we're only going to be seeing real version updates once every 3 months after the game gets rolling then having a better idea of where development is on an ongoing basis and being able to have some influence on it as a player base would make a difference.

That's the thing, the November and December patches might not change because of their announcement, but this lets us know that they're working on those things and we can stop worrying over them (unless they aren't working/need adjustment after being patched in), and concern ourselves with giving feedback on other stuff. It's the long term I'm looking at, and regular communication (assuming we're listened to), whether fluff or not on their end, will help mold the long term of the game into something that's more fun. I don't want them to necessarily listen to every single thing we want, or not keep back any surprises, but I really don't want things to revert to the "XI treatment".

Oh, and while without those "fluff" posts we'd have the same updates in November/December, I'm confidant that there would definitely be a good deal less people around to experience them being patched in.

Edit:
Oh, and is there a way to see old topics (ones that aren't on the main Lodestone page anymore)? If not, archiving them or something so that we could access older updates/editions of Ask the Devs on the sidebar menu would be nice.

[Izzy]

Where's the option for, "They're involved in the community, but I know they're not going to listen to anything we say." option?

We ask for an AH, they give us some half assed implementation of it. We ask for a faster UI, they "redesign" the UI (who the fuck knows what redesign means to them.)

[Elcura]

Where's the option for, "They're involved in the community, but I know they're not going to listen to anything we say." option?

Seems to me like for once they ARE listening.