The Current Hierarchy of DDs

[Marcicus]

There's been some discussion about where DDs stand in respect to each other in the Random Question there, but for the sake of curiosity and not wanting to have this lost within that thread, I wanted to make another one.

It's obvious that WAR and MNK are at the top, but what about everything else? While I think Razed Ruin is the best DD atma in the game right now, I don't seriously think it's so great that SAM just just got bumped to the bottom of the barrel (not speaking about non-Fudo SAM). I also don't think RR is so ridiculous it's allowed shit like BRD to magically start beating other jobs either...


Unfortunately, I'm no good at math so I really don't have numbers to back these assessments up; however, I'd like to see some intelligent discussion come from this so we can see where things stand as is.

[Raen Ryong]

Well, a full comparison is difficult and time consuming, but the (Abyssean) facts are that:

1. Accuracy/Attack/Weapon Combat Skill are rarely relevant
2. Difference between gear availability for TP is pretty irrelevant unless it involves the stats Store TP, Haste, Double Attack, Triple Attack, and a few others.
3. Emphasis on critical damage favours onehanded jobs moreso than twohanded jobs.
4. Depending on situation, your two hour may be a consistent source of damage output.
5. If your weaponskill cannot crit and is not Empyrean, it probably sucks.

The reason non-Fudo SAM got hit hard is because its tp/ws ratio is skewed largely towards the WS side. With no critical weaponskill in sight, its overall ws damage is now mediocre. Combined with an already fairly lacklustre melee side...

To use your example of BRD, it can cap gear Haste fairly effortlessly and the lack of Attack/Accuracy/etc during TP don't matter. During WS, BRD actually has access to pretty decent weaponskill gear and Evisceration.

Could go on further but meh. This'll start it off!

[drwaffles]

Is NIN top-tier even without Hi? I always wanted to level NIN but didn't really see any point until now.

[Hyriu]

Is NIN top-tier even without Hi? I always wanted to level NIN but didn't really see any point until now.

Jin crits and is pretty good.

[Nightfyre]

Is NIN top-tier even without Hi? I always wanted to level NIN but didn't really see any point until now.

Wouldn't surprise me, all that haste and DW is pretty potent. It loses a decent bit in swapping for accuracy though (loses DW almost immediately), so if that ever becomes a relevant stat again it'd fall behind MNK and WAR very quickly.

Speaking of which, while it may come naturally for us to consider performance with heavy buffs I'd also like some input on how they currently perform without such buffs, be it Stalwart's Drink or even just completely outside of Abyssea. I know it's kind of flawed thinking, but I can't imagine Abyssea lasting forever so even with future gear being an unknown I think it's something worth bearing in mind.

[Atoreis]

Is NIN top-tier even without Hi? I always wanted to level NIN but didn't really see any point until now.

My math showing me that NIN is best DD now if you count from 0 TP marches and haste and fight take few minutes.

[Marcicus]

My math showing me that NIN is best DD now if you count from 0 TP marches and haste and fight take few minutes.

Care to post some numbers?

[NynJa]

My very pathetic nin (unbuffed completely, other than Berserk) with VV/RR atma is doin Jins that go from 500 to 1500 dmg to Glavoid. My very well geared thf, with VV/RR atma is about 1500 Eviscerations on that same NM...I'd say NIN got a huge bump in abyssea cause of RR

[Atoreis]

Its in Excel and its 6 am need to go sleep soon. Its also for jobs with emp weapons so it would need changes to check non emps. In 2 words to lazy.

[Hookah]

Might get flamed for this, but isn't this discussion kind of a moot point at this moment in time? With the cap increases and atmas there really is no "bad" DD anymore, some are just less broken than others. Even sam or drk, which are considered bottom of the barrel now because of no crit WS, can put out beastly numbers under the right circumstances.

There's also a lot of grey area right now because of all the new shit that's been added people are still working out what's best.

That and considering the cap is going up again in a few weeks everything could be flipped, turned upside down rendering any conclusions drawn from a topic like this pointless.

[Atoreis]

Might get flamed for this, but isn't this discussion kind of a moot point at this moment in time? With the cap increases and atmas there really is no "bad" DD anymore, some are just less broken than others. Even sam or drk, which are considered bottom of the barrel now because of no crit WS, can put out beastly numbers under the right circumstances.

There's also a lot of grey area right now because of all the new shit that's been added people are still working out what's best.

That and considering the cap is going up again in a few weeks everything could be flipped, turned upside down rendering any conclusions drawn from a topic like this pointless.

Thats probably right and making me even more lazy to post any math that can be outdated in 4 weeks.

[FailureMidgard]

5. If your weaponskill cannot crit and is not Empyrean, it probably sucks.

Disagree, Penta can still easily outdo Evisceration (average, not high) with RR.

The reason non-Fudo SAM got hit hard is because its tp/ws ratio is skewed largely towards the WS side. With no critical weaponskill in sight, its overall ws damage is now mediocre. Combined with an already fairly lacklustre melee side...

Honestly, this idea is thrown around a lot, and isn't even entirely accurate. With Hagun, it was largely true - now, the only thing that even skews it in this direction is StoreTP main traits, but the fact of the matter is it has just as high "white damage" (sorry, I despise the term DoT applying to melee hits sans WS) as any other 2hander out there, it just had more total WS dmg (which is now not as much the case). Also, I'm not sure why you say non-Fudo. Last Ein parse I have, with Fudo I had a 39.56% melee split, and a non-Fudo Sam had a 40.76% melee split. Yea, ODD is nice, but Fudo balances that, and the split is very similar. That being said, I generally do more white damage than anyone else (including monks, though we have no Verethragna yet). Furthermore, looking at our last T1 Ein, white damage only, here's the order:

Sam - 14.5k
Gungnir - 14.4k
Ukko's (-1 version) -12.2k
Sam - 11.1k
War - 10.9k
Sam - 9.9k
Drg - 9.3k

Granted, there's differences in player skill perhaps, and gear,

To use your example of BRD, it can cap gear Haste fairly effortlessly and the lack of Attack/Accuracy/etc during TP don't matter. During WS, BRD actually has access to pretty decent weaponskill gear and Evisceration.

This is just a convenient mix of lvl 75 logic and lvl 85 logic. We're ok assuming that accuracy and attack are perma capped inside Abyssea (they aren't, I promise you), but then comment on haste like that doesn't cap? I mean really, every single job in the game can cap haste now - in fact, standard monk builds are some of the few that don't (because their 25% now is closer to a true 25% than ever before). How is this even noteworthy? Every job in the game also has access to at least 1 solid crit WS, just requires a non-traditional weapon (and/or specific subjob), yet contrary to popular belief, that isn't the end-all be-all, and at least every time I've gone on my thf or mnk, I've been thoroughly unimpressed by the averages of these WSes. Yes, it's higher than Gekko - I won't argue that at all, but the frequency is also far slower, and it isn't even beating out Penta averages (not to mention I can 4hit Penta now). Assuming everyone dropped 1 hit off their build now, a Gaxe warrior gained +20% dmg, whereas a Pole Sam gained +33% damage. Assuming a 54% crit rate with RR for 30% extra damage, thats barely a larger increase in total WS damage done than Sam got just being able to 4hit a pole. This is of course ignoring the fact Penta has better mods and benefits more that way as well.




Overall - Empyrean DDs are at the top. ODD is amazing, Fudo has a pretty consistently high average, even being unable to critical. Overall, it's still the same and bringing the player is far more important than the job. I also don't think anyone is going to have an accurate comparison of the jobs, I know I'm far too lazy to do it all, but will gladly pick apart what someone else does when they undoubtedly use improper assumptions.

[Atoreis]

Disagree, Penta can still easily outdo Evisceration (average, not high) with RR.



Honestly, this idea is thrown around a lot, and isn't even entirely accurate. With Hagun, it was largely true - now, the only thing that even skews it in this direction is StoreTP main traits, but the fact of the matter is it has just as high "white damage" (sorry, I despise the term DoT applying to melee hits sans WS) as any other 2hander out there, it just had more total WS dmg (which is now not as much the case). Also, I'm not sure why you say non-Fudo. Last Ein parse I have, with Fudo I had a 39.56% melee split, and a non-Fudo Sam had a 40.76% melee split. Yea, ODD is nice, but Fudo balances that, and the split is very similar. That being said, I generally do more white damage than anyone else (including monks, though we have no Verethragna yet). Furthermore, looking at our last T1 Ein, white damage only, here's the order:

Sam - 14.5k
Gungnir - 14.4k
Ukko's (-1 version) -12.2k
Sam - 11.1k
War - 10.9k
Sam - 9.9k
Drg - 9.3k

Granted, there's differences in player skill perhaps, and gear,




This is just a convenient mix of lvl 75 logic and lvl 85 logic. We're ok assuming that accuracy and attack are perma capped inside Abyssea (they aren't, I promise you), but then comment on haste like that doesn't cap? I mean really, every single job in the game can cap haste now - in fact, standard monk builds are some of the few that don't (because their 25% now is closer to a true 25% than ever before). How is this even noteworthy? Every job in the game also has access to at least 1 solid crit WS, just requires a non-traditional weapon (and/or specific subjob), yet contrary to popular belief, that isn't the end-all be-all, and at least every time I've gone on my thf or mnk, I've been thoroughly unimpressed by the averages of these WSes. Yes, it's higher than Gekko - I won't argue that at all, but the frequency is also far slower, and it isn't even beating out Penta averages (not to mention I can 4hit Penta now). Assuming everyone dropped 1 hit off their build now, a Gaxe warrior gained +20% dmg, whereas a Pole Sam gained +33% damage. Assuming a 54% crit rate with RR for 30% extra damage, thats barely a larger increase in total WS damage done than Sam got just being able to 4hit a pole. This is of course ignoring the fact Penta has better mods and benefits more that way as well.




Overall - Empyrean DDs are at the top. ODD is amazing, Fudo has a pretty consistently high average, even being unable to critical. Overall, it's still the same and bringing the player is far more important than the job. I also don't think anyone is going to have an accurate comparison of the jobs, I know I'm far too lazy to do it all, but will gladly pick apart what someone else does when they undoubtedly use improper assumptions.

I would never imagine a Relic/Emp SAM will start talking about polearm. I always tho polearm SAM is hardly underestimated and showed as good DD only at birds. In fact my friend with worse equip on SAM was parsing same or higher then me on MNK/war at SALVAGE (on nautral mobs). On piercing weak mobs he was destroying me badly with 2000-3000 pentas on 5 hit build. I was only higher on parse when we split up on 2 mobs and I was taking advantage of counter's dmg.

[Raen Ryong]

Disagree, Penta can still easily outdo Evisceration (average, not high) with RR.

Horribly imprecise question here, but I'm not an avid Penta user - what kind of averages do you get? I haven't parsed an average in awhile since I lag a decent amount in Abyssea anyway so I'm not sure I can even come back with a useful contribution but I would anticipate somewhere in the mid thousands on a neutral target... add a couple of hundred if trash etc.

Last Ein parse I have, with Fudo I had a 39.56% melee split, and a non-Fudo Sam had a 40.76% melee split.

Sorry, that was ambiguity in my statement; it was concerning the standing of nonFudoSAM as a DD, and not its tp/ws split comparatively (which I acknowledge would barely change).

The comment on BRD Haste wasn't to say "only Bard can cap haste", but it was meant to imply that Bard cannot be a bad DD if you assume that Attack/Accuracy are irrelevant stats (Stalwart's Drink makes these stats fairly irrelevant except in extreme cases even without a buffer, no? Honest question here).

I honestly never considered the possibility of a Penta 4hit, which is a bit of an oversight. That is indeed interesting...

[Malacite]

Just going purely by Empyreans (and in terms of raw damage only, not survivability or enmity management which are critical) it's looking like WAR > RNG > MNK > NIN > and then either BLU or THF. Yes techincally Rudra's Storm doesn't crit on it's own but with SA/TA it doesn't matter as much.

Has anyone confirmed yet if the AF3+2 set bonuses for WAR & THF can proc on WS? Someone was talking to me today in-game about how a WAR on our server managed to pull off a 9k Ukko's Fury in Einherjar but I'm calling bullshit on that unless there are Qutrub in Ein? >_>

Even so, Failure did manage what, a 6k WS? Assuming that you got a double attack off, and the Ravager's +2 set bonus can kick in for said DA, what kind of a boost are you looking at? I thought I saw someone mention in the ToM Weapons thread that Double Attacks weren't adding as much damage on Fudo as they do with Y/G/K.

[Nightfyre]

...nevermind

[Milkster]

Just going purely by Empyreans (and in terms of raw damage only, not survivability or enmity management which are critical) it's looking like WAR > RNG > MNK > NIN > and then either BLU or THF. Yes techincally Rudra's Storm doesn't crit on it's own but with SA/TA it doesn't matter as much.

Has anyone confirmed yet if the AF3+2 set bonuses for WAR & THF can proc on WS? Someone was talking to me today in-game about how a WAR on our server managed to pull off a 9k Ukko's Fury in Einherjar but I'm calling bullshit on that unless there are Qutrub in Ein? >_>

Even so, Failure did manage what, a 6k WS? Assuming that you got a double attack off, and the Ravager's +2 set bonus can kick in for said DA, what kind of a boost are you looking at? I thought I saw someone mention in the ToM Weapons thread that Double Attacks weren't adding as much damage on Fudo as they do with Y/G/K.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/912...=1#post4243528

I hear Wildfire is pretty beastly... I have no idea though since I don't play but this guy is just silly.
Soooo yeah...

[Tsuko_Asura]

Just going purely by Empyreans (and in terms of raw damage only, not survivability or enmity management which are critical) it's looking like WAR > RNG > MNK > NIN > and then either BLU or THF. Yes techincally Rudra's Storm doesn't crit on it's own but with SA/TA it doesn't matter as much.

Has anyone confirmed yet if the AF3+2 set bonuses for WAR & THF can proc on WS? Someone was talking to me today in-game about how a WAR on our server managed to pull off a 9k Ukko's Fury in Einherjar but I'm calling bullshit on that unless there are Qutrub in Ein? >_>

Even so, Failure did manage what, a 6k WS? Assuming that you got a double attack off, and the Ravager's +2 set bonus can kick in for said DA, what kind of a boost are you looking at? I thought I saw someone mention in the ToM Weapons thread that Double Attacks weren't adding as much damage on Fudo as they do with Y/G/K.

Fuckin lol

[Tsuko_Asura]

Can you really be this stupid?

[Tsuko_Asura]

I mean, really?