A small request: Kaeko's AV strategy needing critique~!

[Ashira]

Okay, I know a handful of people have seen it, including Ruke with his comments and all, but Kaeko did sort of put it on my shoulders to try and be sure more people read his more recent blog post, outlining an idea for an AV fight which doesn't really deal much with the 2hrs and whatnot at all, but instead, as is typical Kaeko, sort of uses the game's own mechanics to our advantage. Because frankly, so far, it doesn't seem as we've gotten too far with what the devs decided to "show" us.

It's interesting to say the least. The problem is, we are a smaller shell and principally JP, and it would be hard for us to coordinate a time to attempt this sort of effort.

What I think Kaeko is hoping for is a slightly larger, intelligent shell (as in, one that uses more planning and strategies vs throwing bodies at mobs and winging it - THAT large of a shell can be harder to coordinate) to possibly attempt what he's mapped out.

So, everyone take a gander and see what you think.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/

Discussion here or on his blog is welcome; he reads BG too, obviously, so will probably be able to address both equally.

[Max™]

That is actually an awesome observation, I'll suggest it to my AU sea shell, but I don't know how many they can reliably muster during a JoL attempt.

[Ashira]

Changed my thread title a bit in hopes of getting people to actually read. :D

[Quicklet]

I find it ironic that a borderline exploit is being advocated as the solution to the fix for a previous exploit.

[Vedder]

zomg, shameless LJ plug!!

Kidding of course... the proposal is quite elegant as usual. I'd offer criticism, but it looks good on paper. The biggest challenge would be organizing everyone and having them all perform their roles perfectly in concert.

[LeifofKujata]

Using terrain is not an exploit, its in the game design. Not our fault the AI isn't smart enough to cast through the wall(which it could at this wall if it wanted to).

I like this strategy, albeit a little complex at first, if it would be shown to work reliably it would become almost near second nature for many people, for a holding strategy if not killing. There a definate flaws/details to hash out, but for the most part it seems doable.

[Izzy]

Using terrain is not an exploit, its in the game design. Not our fault the AI isn't smart enough to cast through the wall(which it could at this wall if it wanted to).

Tell that to the people whom GMs threatened to jail for using terrain as an exploit.

[Lordender]

This strat could get people jailed if some spectator's decides to cockblock and call a GM on you >.> or you get unlucky and just happen to have a GM troll your AV fight, GM's seem to get butt hurt when terrian is used to your advantage when fighting AV. Its a good strategy though otherwise, best out there i would say if a GM doesn't go emo and get butthurt about using terrian.

[Max™]

Well, technically Terrain issues are when the monster cannot get to you, a la wall of justice.

This is just like standing on one side of the stream in N Gusta and nuking a goblin on the other side, then making it run down to the bridge to get to you as you nuke it to death.

Or other such tactics.

[Tricen]

I wish SE would at least acknowledge the fact that whatever strategy they are (or aren't) implying, does not work.

[Suiram]

Not only that but if you give someone an impassable wall that prevents a mob from attacking the person with hate, anyone can come up with a decent strategy for utilizing it. This one requires specific knowledge about how hate works that very few people would likely have thought of, and if they had it would have been based on Kaeko's groundwork anyway. It also requires more than a little coordination and communication to effect. Trying to debate whether or not it counts as a legit tactic is such a gray area, and it essentially boils down to trying to read the minds of SE employees, if you even think their opinion really matters more than your own. Although if people do start fighting and ultimately killing AV this way, and if they (FFXI designers) have a problem with it, they can just patch that particular terrain to prohibit casting across it, as they did with the structures around the Mt. Zhayolm pudding camp a number of updates ago.

[Fhqwghads]

SE seems to want 1, and only 1, strategy used for the AV fight. They're full of hypocrisy, on one hand praising the community for being creative (NIN tanking being a huge example with SE condoning and even encouraging it) and then on the other bitch-slapping people when they manage to come up with a way to kill this stupid fucking mob in a way they didn't intend.

[LeifofKujata]

Wall of Justice I'll chalk up to an exploit more or less, cause you aren't really in the same "zone". But 'this' wall I won't due to the fact you still can be meleed if AV is given the chance.

[Doofus]

I find it ironic that a borderline exploit is being advocated as the solution to the fix for a previous exploit.

Borderline exploits is what Kaeko does best >.> not that its a bad thing, don't hurt me :ashira:

Until someone figures out a normal way of beating it or a GM says we can't do this, it may be all we have so I say go for it.
I'd rather see someone POS hack it to death than see this shit keep going for another 2 years.

[Max™]

Least this might help break the "omg, did you see that, someone in the AV video said '3' at 16:54 in the video, and 30 seconds later AV used Manafont while facing Northeast on Iceday as a seagull shat gracefully overhead" insanity.

[Spekkio]

i won't profess to be an expert at your enmity research, but based on my limited knowledge, wouldn't AV start to become highly uncontrollable after the whms hit the CE cap? your cure5's would no longer be able to pull hate beyond their VE and while that's significant, your rng are steadily building CE. depending on the decay rate of VE (which i don't know b/c i'm stupid) it may decay before AV reaches the other whm, placing your holding rng or the whm it was pulled from in significant danger and pushing AV in his famous "pwn joo" mode. also, how would this be affected when (if? i dunno the ce/ve on shadowbind) your rng hit the CE cap?

is it no longer supported that AV will use a "reactionary" 2 hr when hit with an element not aligned to the day? i know that diabolos's nether blast is considered darkness aligned, and i'm concerned that this may trigger him to 2 hr, bringing the game over condition of benediction. would shadowbind potentially do the same thing or does this not extend to damageless JA like shadowbind, provoke, etc?

i hope these aren't redundant or stupid questions, but these are what come to mind when reading the article. GL with it, it sure does sound interesting.

P.S. minor correction: you stated that you wanted support to the whm to build up CE and in the next line you stated things would get wonky if those players ever hit the CE cap. i presume you meant that they should NOT build up CE to prevent bad things from happening. sorry to nitpick, but it confused me for a second.

[Alistaire]

Nice strat. One sidenote I found interesting:

The "Wall of Justice" strategy STILL WORKS on everything except AV. You can 4-6 man any Tier II Sea Jailer using this still since they don't have Draw In.

Has this been tried with Prudence? Wondering if he could just teleport through the wall.

[jaryk]

As all of us know, nothing is illegal until you can consistently get more than 1 GM to actually tell you it is or SE actually makes an announcement. Quite frankly if it works and you can get away with some kills before it's shot down, why not?

[Bkbahamut]

Really good strat as previously said.. but organizing it and getting that amount of jobs and finding the people all with WHM and RNG to do their job that perfectly....................are slim

You go over its hp and how long to kill it in your LJ, but you dont actually mention how to deal with Benediction? Or are you just saying this is how you kill it, go do it and hope to god it doesnt decide to Benediction. Or else it will be much longer then "one hour."

[Meloria]

One potential flaw in the plan that I see could be that you can't break his regen if he's moved from the ??? and/or spawn point. I thought CC tried breaking regen at the JoL spawn and couldn't until AV was moved back to the ???