lowbie cor buff penalty when buffing 75s

[Atreides]

been semi-testing this for a while now, after I noticed my lvl 40ish COR couldn't give 3 mp/tick on evokers to a lvl 75 (without a smn in the party, even when rolling a 5 or 10)... here's what I got, as well I as what I figure is the formula behind it, but if someone has more info on this feel free to correct me:

lvl 75 drk with a base attack of 484, being buffed by a lvl 62 corsair

rolling a IV -> 623 attack
= 28.7% attack boost (instead of 35%)
buff strength is 82.1% of max

rolling a IX -> 593 attack
= 22.5% attack boost (instead of 27%)
buff strength is 83.4% of max


This made me think you take a cut to your buffs equal to corsair's level divided by buffee's level, since 62/75 is around 83% (82.67). I tried out the following with dancer's roll afterward (on the same drk, no dnc in the party)

Dancer's Roll (V), 5 hp a tick (should be 5)
5 x (62/75) = 4.133 -> rounds up to 5 a tick

Dancer's Roll (IX), 7 hp a tick (should be 8)
8 x (62/75) = 6.6133 -> rounds up to 7 a tick


after this I decided to try once more with chaos (on the same drk), this time rolling a VII but with a base attack of 470:

rolling a VII with 470 base attack -> 569 attack
= 21% attack boost (instead of 25%)
buff strength is 84% of max


I'm not sure if my formula of cor level divided by buffee level to determine buff strength vs. max is entirely correct, but it would explain why after a certain point I was able to give 3mp a tick to 75s from my LS in beseiged. I also noticed the same effect on corsair's roll at around lvl 50 which seemed to become less pronounced around lvl 60.

This cut to your buffs makes sense, since otherwise a lvl 14 corsair would be able to buff a lvl 75 dark knight almost as well as a brd with minuet IV.

Thoughts/observations on this? I'm not entirely sure if this was something well known before (I saw one entry somewhere about wizard's roll taking a cut when you get it at 58 and use it on 75 blms but that's it) or if there have been other posts made about it in other places/forums.

[Rheya]

Similarly, is there a penalty for a high level COR buffing lowbies? Maybe I'll try buffing some level 1's with my 55 COR tonight.

[Atreides]

i would guess no, as your buffs already scale down in a sense since they're all percent increases- meaning an 11 on chaos roll on a level 1 drk would give 41% attack boost, but since base attack is so low at that level there'd be no reason to nerf it. Of course this would still make something like rogues/fighters quite powerful, but the difference between brd buff and cor buffs is brd buffs add specific values, whereas cor is a % increase. It'd be worth testing but I'm 99% sure the 5 min duration is unaffected, and buffs should be as well.

[Kylen]

Thoughts/observations on this? I'm not entirely sure if this was something well known before (I saw one entry somewhere about wizard's roll taking a cut when you get it at 58 and use it on 75 blms but that's it) or if there have been other posts made about it in other places/forums.

Yeah, the Wizard's Roll level difference testing was pretty widely known, and I recall seeing Chaos Roll tests before as well which showed that the level penalty on those rolls is (corsair's level / target's level) * normal buff strength if the corsair is lower level than the target.

I wasn't aware that this affected Evoker's Roll, however; I thought that roll was constant regardless of level difference. I'd be curious to see some tests supporting this, if anyone knows any level 40 COR's out there .

[Genosync]

(corsair's level / target's level) * normal buff strength if the corsair is lower level than the target.

this applies to mp too and rounds down(?), let's check the math

At same level with SMN:

1 - 2mp
2 - 2mp
3 - 2mp
4 - 2mp
5 - 4mp
6 - 2mp
7 - 2mp
8 - 3mp
9 - 2mp
10 - 3mp
11 - 5mp

I think that's right off the top of my head, idr. So this puts

1 - 1.09 or something
2 - 1.09
3 - 1.09
4 - 1.09
5 - 2.18
6 - 1.09
7 - 1.09
8 - 1.64
9 - 1.09
10 - 1.64
11 - 2.73

So basically just need to know if it's 1mp/tick for everything but 5/11. Otherwise the rounding is weird and we need to get more infos. Would be good to check it every level too.

[Atreides]

I'm pretty sure it rounds up

From what I saw when I was lvl 40 cor in besieged with lvl 75 LS mates, 2 a tick was the max, even when rolling a 5 or a 10 (never got to test with 11)

(40/75) x 3/tick = 1.599 -> 2/tick
(40/75) x 2/tick = 1.067 -> 2/tick

I tried again when I hit 53 (or 54, dont remember) and saw that 5 and 10 were restoring 3 a tick, as was 11.

I guess this means the "threshhold" for 3/tick from 5/10 is lvl 51 (since that's when you exceed 66.67%), and level 57 would be the point when you can start restoring 4/tick if you roll an 11 or have a smn in your party.

The numbers I got on dancers roll in the OP seem to support this as well.

[Howard Roark]

hmm kinda lame, arent brd buffs relatively unchanged from the top down? like BRD pl-ing lowbies (inviting for songs and dropping)

i always thought it was a bit broken when i found out (seeing as haste lasts like 5 seconds tops on a lvl 1 and protect 4 not much longer)

[Ashira]

hmm kinda lame, arent brd buffs relatively unchanged from the top down? like BRD pl-ing lowbies (inviting for songs and dropping)

i always thought it was a bit broken when i found out (seeing as haste lasts like 5 seconds tops on a lvl 1 and protect 4 not much longer)

Yeah, but BRD songs are also tiered as you level up (Mad I/II, Minuet I/II/III/IV, etc), whereas COR rolls are just the one roll from whatever level you can begin to learn it until 75. So a LV40 BRD buffing a 75 won't have access to all the same songs, whereas a 40 COR has the same rolls a 75 would (that can be learned through 40, anyway). So it does make sense to penalize for buffing upwards.

[Spider-Dan]

hmm kinda lame, arent brd buffs relatively unchanged from the top down? like BRD pl-ing lowbies (inviting for songs and dropping)

i always thought it was a bit broken when i found out (seeing as haste lasts like 5 seconds tops on a lvl 1 and protect 4 not much longer)

It kind of sucks, but for reasons unrelated to what you are saying.

COR top-down buffs (e.g. 75COR PLing lowbies) are unaffected by level-penalty; however, since many of COR's buffs are %-based (e.g. Chaos, Samurai, Fighter's, Rogue's, Wizard's), they just don't have the oomph that Minuet+Madrigal from a BRD PL do. The primary exception is Hunter's, which is a static bonus (and yes, Hunter's works like magic).

[Rionel]

I'm sorry for necro-bumping this a little, but I do have a question regarding this and I didn't wanna make another thread since this was here so...

Let's say a Lv75 COR is trying to PL a LV10 NIN and uses Hunter's Roll to buff him/her. Would having a RNG in the party buff the roll for the NIN or do the job bonuses to rolls not apply to those who are lower leveled than the COR?

Sorry again for the inconvenience. ^^;

[fren.]

I guess I'll ask here; how much of a leech would I be in a merit party? (I'm only 41 and my invite rates are pathetic and there's usually shit seeking when I can xp)

I figured Brd/Cor(me)/Rdm/Filler (3)

[Ashira]

I'm sorry for necro-bumping this a little, but I do have a question regarding this and I didn't wanna make another thread since this was here so...

Let's say a Lv75 COR is trying to PL a LV10 NIN and uses Hunter's Roll to buff him/her. Would having a RNG in the party buff the roll for the NIN or do the job bonuses to rolls not apply to those who are lower leveled than the COR?

Sorry again for the inconvenience. ^^;

I've never heard of job bonuses not being in play because of a party member's level, but I'm not sure it's anything anyone I've known in my immediacy has ever tested either.

I also don't believe there is a penalty the other way around, buffing lower levels; COR roll seems to be the same bonuses for the most part as I recall? I haven't actually done that in a while, so I can't remember honestly.

I guess I'll ask here; how much of a leech would I be in a merit party? (I'm only 41 and my invite rates are pathetic and there's usually shit seeking when I can xp)

I figured Brd/Cor(me)/Rdm/Filler (3)

Umm... a huge leech, not to mention your EXP really won't be spectacular. CORs don't use RNG/DRK roll all the way to 75, so you're denying them preferable rolls, esp if particular jobs are in a party; also, look at the OP and use the equations... or even just the example. A level 62 COR would be gimping out their PT - with a DRK - a 7-8% Attack Bonus.. now take another 20 levels away from the COR?

[fren.]

It was worth a shot, my invite rates fucking suck.

Didn't Ryko post screens of him leeching on THF <60? This is essentially where I got the question from.

[Valkrish]

i would guess no, as your buffs already scale down in a sense since they're all percent increases- meaning an 11 on chaos roll on a level 1 drk would give 41% attack boost, but since base attack is so low at that level there'd be no reason to nerf it. Of course this would still make something like rogues/fighters quite powerful, but the difference between brd buff and cor buffs is brd buffs add specific values, whereas cor is a % increase. It'd be worth testing but I'm 99% sure the 5 min duration is unaffected, and buffs should be as well.

This is true, great work sir.

All rolls are scaled down to % or low #s.

Only 'good' roll at a low low level would be hunter / chaos roll

[Valyana]

however, since many of COR's buffs are %-based (e.g. Chaos, Samurai, Fighter's, Rogue's, Wizard's)

Of those, I thought only Chaos roll was %-based, at least in the sense of the bonus being a fraction of the buffee's stats. I don't see how Fighter's Roll could give DA proportional to the amount of DA that the players already have.

[Ryko]

It was worth a shot, my invite rates fucking suck.

Didn't Ryko post screens of him leeching on THF <60? This is essentially where I got the question from.

Yeah from like 47 to 52, but I obviously didnt actually attack anything.

[Spider-Dan]

Of those, I thought only Chaos roll was %-based, at least in the sense of the bonus being a fraction of the buffee's stats. I don't see how Fighter's Roll could give DA proportional to the amount of DA that the players already have.

Samurai, Fighter's, Rogue's, and Wizard's are %-based in the sense that they increase your TP gain/DPS/crit rate/magic damage proportional to your existing TP gain/DPS/crit rate/magic damage.

For example, look at Hunter's. Hunter's (with RNG) gives ACC+~40 on average, which is pretty useful to a LV75. However, it gives the same bonus to a LV10, which is overwhelmingly godlike at that level. Minuet IV works the same way.

In contrast, Samurai is almost exactly as good for a LV10 as it is for a LV75; it's a nice, useful bonus, but not WTFAMAZING like Hunter's/Minuet/Madrigal.

Put rather simply, most COR rolls scale down proportionately when used on low-level parties (even without a specific level penalty) because they are tied to your existing crit rate or TP gain or magic damage. Hunter's/Evoker's/Dancer's (maybe Ninja) are the only relevant rolls that have the capability to provide "overpowered" buffs to a low-level party.