Salvage scheduling problems, any tips?

[rithridan]

warning, tl;dr topic so skip to recap, you have been warned.

Lately I've been having a lot of trouble getting shit done with my group. When I first started the group I naivly thought it would go just peachy and nothing could go wrong. Fast forward 9 months and my ~10 people large group has grown as large as 17 people. We have had people come and go so much that I don't think we have actually done the same area twice with the same group/setup and we go 3 times a week too. The worst part of all of this is that I'm pretty sure of those 17 people only 3, maybe 4 people have enough knowhow to lead a run.

Obviously with a group this large it gets increasingly more difficult for a /point system to be fair and accepted. In our group you pick 5 items you want to upgrade and prioritize them #1 to #5. With this I would basicly try to judge who gets to lot on a drop (hah, shit drops in salvage?) where I try to take into account how often he shows up, how important his job is, how many stuff he already got, if hes 2/3 or not, etc.etc. Ofcourse this is begging for drama but whatever, whats done is done and this isn't really the point of the thread.

We've had 2 people who are very active and thus have also already recieved a lot of items sitting on 2 SSR 35 pieces for the last month or 2 at least. Because we always need to kill 5FN & 6F frogs for their 35s (which never drop...) we have been failing so badly that we haven't even been able to kill the Zhayolm Boss for the last 2 months if not more. We've tried nearly everything and always something manages to go so wrong we lose 5 minutes or more (usually more). Needless to say shit is getting restless / annoyed / whatever (including me).

Because I try to play things as fair as possible for everyone I keep rotating areas. In the past I had people cry to me about not doing enough area X, thus I now rotate each areas as best as I can based on who signs up etc.etc. Obviously now I have people cry to me about not doing enough Zhayolm Boss because they are sitting on 2/3 for a long time and we keep failing on hitting frogs+boss. Its getting to the point I'm going out of my mind since I get person A who wants to do Arrapaggo for blah A, person B wants Bhaflau for blah B, person C wants SSR for neverdropmachaslops, etc.etc. I practicly flipped out when I scheduled the next 2 weeks of only Zhayloms are (partly joke, partly pissed off) response to someone only to get all those people to ask me why were not doing area X anymore.

So BG, what do you guys do to schedule runs? Spam 1 area ignoring half your static or more hoping they won't quit because they are just wasting AP on not getting stuff or ignore everyone and just keep on rotating hoping I will not blow myself up from going crazy from all the "I want this area" requests.

tl;dr recap

* don't make a big group with /point system.
* get people who do a more then just their jobs.
* get people who don't have a life and make every run.
* become the next super salvage group who can hit everything, all the time, with their fingers up their ass while blindfolded, ezcakes.
* become a scheduling god and get all the drops you desire so everyone is as happy as a disney animation.
* tell me how!

[Zeb]

Don't recruit people who don't understand how gay salvage drops are or how there are different runs for different sets. Also don't recruit people who have no patience with not getting drops. Don't recruit more than 8-10 core players. I'm a fan of the K.I.S.S. rule. You're only as good as your weakest link. With 17 people you're bound to have a lot of screwups that could be avoided.

Our group spammed BR for 25 runs trying to get Bees to drop(Everyone wants boots -.-) Gate Widow, ZZ, and boss drops along with 1 bee drop finally got us to switching runs. I think now that drops are a bit more spread across our members, the runs will spread out more for our group.

[Ahlah]

My group are facing similar dilemma. One of the members has been sitting on 2/3 Usukane mask for months. Zhayom Remnant is just plain annoying, even with our best setup we still fail to clear 5f>6f>megaboss around 20% of the time because of stupid Frog Chorus. Recenlty I just reform the salvage group and we are struggling to clear 5f > megaboss. ZR is definitely the least beginner-friendly zone.

Try to improve salvage efficiency. With enough experience, it's possible to clear both Madames and BCC. Lv25 armours are 100% drop if ppl have been waiting long enough it's probably reasonable to spam BCC and try to cap lv25 in this zone. It can be quite difficult to get new members (esp. those who don't have much salvage experience) to understand why they should skip Madame. My group enter salvaeg 5 days/week. Our current plan is to do 2 Zhayolm runs - one megaboss run and one farming run. Most experienced salvage groups should be able to handle 5f madame and megaboss, if you don't want to waste time unloakcing panthos for 3 members try 1f madame > megaboss. I am sure most ppl already know how annoying it can be to schedule a ZR run just to farm lv15 armour.

[rithridan]

My group are facing similar dilemma. One of the members has been sitting on 2/3 Usukane mask for months. Zhayom Remnant is just plain annoying, even with our best setup we still fail to clear 5f>6f>megaboss around 20% of the time because of stupid Frog Chorus. Recenlty I just reform the salvage group and we are struggling to clear 5f > megaboss. ZR is definitely the least beginner-friendly zone.

Try to improve salvage efficiency. With enough experience, it's possible to clear both Madames and BCC. Lv25 armours are 100% drop if ppl have been waiting long enough it's probably reasonable to spam BCC and try to cap lv25 in this zone. It can be quite difficult to get new members (esp. those who don't have much salvage experience) to understand why they should skip Madame. My group enter salvaeg 5 days/week. Our current plan is to do 2 Zhayolm runs - one megaboss run and one farming run. Most experienced salvage groups should be able to handle 5f madame and megaboss, if you don't want to waste time unloakcing panthos for 3 members try 1f madame > megaboss. I am sure most ppl already know how annoying it can be to schedule a ZR run just to farm lv15 armour.

To further complicate things, we have someone with 0 completed pieces but 2/3 on Morrigan's Pigaches missing the 35 from 6F. Only doing 5FN and boss would be slap in the face for that person, especially since he already missed out on 2 Macha's Pigaches drops because he wasn't there at those specific runs. Attendance wise the majority of our players have roughly 50% attendance rate which isn't a lot. It's a bit skewed tho since not everyone was with us since the beginning and our site doesn't take this into account. So people with 15/100 runs could have a 75% attendance since they joined up but I can't check that (unless I do it manually, no way..)

[Ahlah]

Tbh I don't think having both lv15 and lv25 morrigan feet is a justified reason to do 6f Madame and risk timing out @ BCC. Make more sense to focus on BCC and try to cap lv25 drops so that your group don't have to worry about doing BCC anymore. 2 guaranteed lv25 armour are better than 1 Madame fight with shitty drop rate esp. when one of your members already has lv35 armour. Once your group cap lv25 you should be able to focus on 5f>6f.

Alternative - since your group do 3 runs/week. try to arrange extra ZR run that targets 5f and 6f if you have spare SSR cards and assault points. A balanced group of 6 should be able to handle the fight.

[Balb]

Less is more!

All I can say is take care of your core members, and work the new ones in over time, you can't please everyone. The new guys will understand that Salvage is a marathon, not a 40yd dash. If your group as a whole would like to see more return tho, I'd say you'd need to add another run per week given your circumstances.

Constantly switching out of a zone sometimes is counter-productive. You don't give your group a chance to learn the zone as best they can, and do it efficiently enough to full clear it consistently. If you have different people coming to Salvage each time as well, this makes it that much more difficult.

[Darkmoon]

My personal opinion is that Salvage should be done only with a select group of friends/Ls members. It needs to be a near set group, and not a revolving door of members.

We run 3x a week. And our General policy is we Farm 35s untill someone has a 35, at that point we use 1-2 runs a week doing the chariot for the matching 25 (if we need it) then after its obtained we go back to the 35 farming. If more then 1 35 is outstanding, we rotate which bosses we do so that we dont typically spam the same one over and over.

Currently we have been stuck on Long Arms, he wont drop Skadi Mask 25 (yeah in know....) We hav 5-8 of every other drop form him and he jsut wont drop it. So we have been doing him 1-2 times a week, its gets boring, but at the same time if you were a member with a 35 outsantding, youd want your boss spammed also!

I agree with the above poster that having a 15 & a 25 isnt a qualification for doing a set NM. As a shell progresses and you work a lot of bosses, most everyone will be sitting on 15 + 25, and just need 35s. Doing bosses up front also gets 25s for others which means later down the road you wont need to do a boss as the 25 would already be in hand.

[fndragon]

I've found a neat trick to avoid all of this "but I want to go to zone Y tonight": Make the decision of which zone to go to the responsibility of your current point leader. (unless you run a /point system, which means, well, you're stuck).

This means that the players know it's not arbitrary which zone they're doing, and if they put in the time and effort to become the point leader they will be in charge of which zone gets done.

[Suiram]

What I've always done on impromptu (non-static) runs, which I've mentioned in one or two other threads here, is to have everyone vote for a zone. Then assign each zone to a range between 0-999 proportionate to the number of votes it received and /random. So like if you get 2 votes for Silv, 2 votes for Bhaf and 1 vote for Arra, it'd be 0-399 Silv, 400-799 Bhaf, 800-999 Arra. Then if Silv or Bhaf wins, where you can't hit every NM in the same zone, then the people who voted for it pick the path you do, or else do another /random between just them if they can't all be accomodated.

[fishstix]

If you have 3 people who knows how to lead salvage, that's plenty enough to do multiple runs at once. Send a group of ~6 to farm NMs from any zone and have the rest do ZR's boss only if you're having difficulty clearing frog(s)+boss. Regardless of having 0 completed pieces or 5, it sucks sitting on 2/3 needing a lv25 or 100% lv15.

But yeah, I think your best bet is to do multiple runs at the same time. I had a similar issue where since it was done within the LS system, we couldn't turn people away and ended up bringing 12+ into BR, SSR, etc. Later, we started doing 2 runs at once. One thing though, if you're leading your Salvage group, LEAD THEM, don't let them lead you. You wouldn't stand for ppl going "omg why cant i get weapon/ja/magic cells" so dont bend to their complaining about choice of zone/nm/boss. If the people that are complaining are the leechers, tell them to learn how to run/lead a zone.

[mdkuser]

Do the following:

- Do not consider yourself as a salvage LS but rather as a Static. The word static means people come all the time. A lot of people think they can join a "salvage LS" and wait for their turn to get a drop. It doesnt work like that.

- do 2 runs at a time of you have 10+ members ( with the d/c trick), salvage is more fun and rewarding with 6 or less people. I personally went 1/1 trio on three NMs lol.

- don't take people that are just gonna follow the group w/o making efforts, this isn't dynamis or Dragon's aery.

- If new members suck or do not make efforts, kick them. I know it's harsh, but salvage doesn't allow mistakes.

- make everyone read the wiki and BG salvage threads. All the info is there.

- change the leader of runs regularilly so that everyone gets involved.

- don't make people come as only one job.


I have 2 salvage groups.

One does 2 runs a week, has 15 ish members like yours, and gets 10+ people each time. But they are like you, they don't really improve and make mistakes, so for most runs we skip NMs. For example SS we typically skip one or 2 Nms if we do boss, bhaflau we do 1 full rampart and sometimes haven't time for boss, Zh cant do 4+5+boss etc. Most members wouldn't be able to lead the group, and are lost when me and my friends from the other LS aren't here. Most members have only 1 or 2 piece upgraded after 1.5 year, and are pissed off when they see my full sets.

My second salvage has 6-8 members tops each salvage. It runs twice a week, with 2 optional runs where rules are relaxed. It's a good salvage group, we systematically used to do all NM+ boss types of runs. Now not anymore since we have gotten so many drops, and there are many NMs we don't need anymore. I believe the average completed piece per member is 5-6; We have 5 full sets. Everyone knows what they have to do, most have multiple useful jobs, we swap jobs regularily, most are able to lead runs, etc.

[cdgreg]

- make everyone read the wiki and BG salvage threads. All the info is there.

God that would be awesome if people did lol

[Kaia]

I used to be a very nice person before I started leading salvage.

My group uses a similar lotting system as the OP, but we've grown from a core group of 6 to maybe 10 or 11, but I never like to take more than 8 on a run.

As far as people complaining about not doing X zone enough or doing X zone too much... there reaches a point where you just need to tell them to either stop bitching or stop showing up. As above posters have said, you're only as strong as your weakest link, and people who'd rather be doing the zones and NMs THEY need than the zones and NMs the GROUP needs are likely to be unfocused unless you're doing what they want to do, which punishes the group as a whole because of a few people's selfishness.

Leading a salvage group is a lot of work (and often thankless work), and members need to place a certain amount of trust in their leaders to be planning zones and NMs that have the best chance at completing the most gear for the most members. I'm not saying people should blindly do whatever their leaders tell them to - just that people who don't respect how hard it is to lead a salvage group, and people who complain about playing certain jobs, doing certain zones, and doing certain NMs, are essentially slapping you, your effort as a leader, and your group's effort as a whole right in the face.

If your members are really not loyal enough that they'd quit if you don't do their zones/NMs, you could start a rotation like this:

Week 1: 35 farming. This week has 35 NMs as its primary objective, with bosses as secondary.

Week 2: Bosses. This week has bosses as primary objectives, with 35 NMs as secondary.

If people start having selective attendance and only show up to runs they benefit from, you're perfectly within your rights as a leader to penalize them. If they quit because of this penalty then you're better off without them.

[rithridan]

Mdkuser mentioned to change the leader of the runs regularly to get everyone involved. I have some prior experience with that although not within Salvage. I also run a Limbus/Sea shell and tend to make multiple runs with as few people as possible. Most of the people in the shell have a lot of experience in Limbus (50+ runs) and one would expect that they know their way around. Yet still when I take certain people with me on one area and leave the other area up to a group which I think is capable of winning the area with a lot of time left I usually get /tells with questions during the run (while I'm doing a different run usually play tank+brd myself) or sometimes get to hear they just wiped out thinking to myself how they even managed that.

Last Sunday I already tried to do that when we had 13 people and I split it into 2 groups of which one did Arrapago (NMs+boss) and the other went rampart farming. The only reason it worked reasonably well is because I could split the groups with both of them having someone leading who knows his stuff. The person leading Arrapago is actually the only RDM we have who is capable of soloing 3F QQTH while the rest farms cells.

I would like to do that more often but I will still have the issue of people having to work during Salvage (some work in different shifts) or what have you (we have one who has a chronic issue called GF). Maybe I should force people to learn how to manage salvage alone sending a group of 'unexperienced' players to do some NM hunting while I take the more experienced group to do a boss specific run. Up to them to either put up or waste AP.

[Kaylia]

It was said many time already, but 17 is waaaaaay too many. A salvage static need 6-7 peoples who can log 4-5 nights a week (generally between 9 pm to midnight). Bringing 8 is borderline, and 9 is too many. Sure, you can get a decent run with 8+, but it's not worth it to make the group this large if you plan to last a while. Only thing you will get is drama, member who quit/joins every week, and shitty runs


6-7 men group mean more loot for everyone and less drama. It's also a lot easier to perform when cell arent spread accross a large alliance, when people don't die to aoe, and when you control tp given.

My static (War mnk rdmx2 (or whm) brd) cleared Zhayolm Remnant with 5, we popped 3 rampart and killed nerfed Bhafleau mega with 5 as well, we can clear arrapago every time with 6 (including all 4 qiqirn TH). SSR is the only zone we havent managed to clear completely with a small party, Unless you go with unmerited/gimp players, you should be able to accomplish just as much as us with a similar setup.



Anyway, the best thing you can do right now is give up on your salvage party (or split in 2 groups). After this, reform one, but carefuly pick people
- Make sure everyone is on Red vs Blue...low rank wont be able to get points and will eventually quit because of it.
- Get a solid core. You dont want to look for healer or brd every night every night. Those people need to be able to attend 90-95% of the runs. Make sure those people are willing to stick together for 1 year+...that's what it take to get what you need.
- Alternate between every zone/path with wanted loot...dont repeat the same zone over and over for someone.


[edit]
And everyone should be able to "lead a group". Salvage isn't hard, and if they can't go read the wiki page, or if they need to be told which cell to pass/lot after 5-10 runs, they are probably horrible player

[Helooper]

Well Im one of the older members of that static and most things that were said here are well known for us, best to go lowman aka 6-8 ppl max etc., but our current situation missing a 'good' WHM and another co-MNK tank led us recruit more people and we ended up with 17 who are everything but MNK or WHM, so its kind of a circus what we have there atm.

Most of them come occasionally due to less interests? I dont know. Others have a HNMLS, so they cant come at times when something is up. So doing 2 seperate runs isnt an option most of the time.

In the end we ended doing very contra-productive runs lately, cant win shit and fail at easiest things.

Hes a good natured guy and cant boot people, warn them or setting them on trial etc. and always sees the good in everyone XD

[Arkanos]

I'm in a relatively similar position (hell, on the same server too I believe; I think I've seen your name around Gilgamesh); I currently lead a limbus/salvage ls that holds roughly 25 active members, spread out over 3 days, only 3 or 4 who usually come everyday (thankfully these include a rdm/brd, a thf, a war/rdm and a mnk). Thanks to the regular rotations, I wouldn't call us elite either, especially since most of us are from social lses rather than hnmlses, but we do enough and have surprisingly good luck on drops that people are mostly happy.

For scheduling, thanks to the revolving door of not -really- knowing who'd be showing up when, I usually decide which remnants we do on the day we go, giving a slight bias to people who have had good attendance but little to show for it. Generally you need the group to have trust in you for this to really work; I made it clear from the start that I may prioritize certain areas over another to "help out" members who had worse luck on drops than others. This also usually prevents people from only showing up to runs they'd benefit from. On the other hand though, since right now we have a HUGE backlog of 35s lacking 25s and 15s, we're making sure every run is a boss run now and especially spamming silver seas since 10 of them are stuck there (had some really good bhafs recently >_>), and throwing in the odd arrapago and zhayolm for the unluckier ones.

Also, you said you have 10-17 people; whenever I have >12 people, I always split the groups into two. Identify who are your most capable members and train them a little on leading runs, let them lead a run with you in it, until you're confident that they can lead a run themselves. If we have an unwieldy number like 10 or 11, I usually choose a few people who generally wouldn't benefit from the run I planned to take the night off and save their AP.

Basically, shit is situational. Some cases you might wanna spam, some cases you might give an area or two a slight priority, and others a perfect rotation is fair. For the example you brought up, I would use slight bias'd scheduling; schedule one zhayolm run to be pure 5f/6f farming; if it goes well and you can hit boss at the same time, then good, if not, have the next run be 5f/boss, and the last run be something not Zhayolm. Especially since you said none of your members really show up 100% of the time, simply schedule a 5f/boss run for a day when the morrigan feet guy normally won't make it to.

[Kaylia]

Well Im one of the older members of that static and most things that were said here are well known for us, best to go lowman aka 6-8 ppl max etc., but our current situation missing a 'good' WHM and another co-MNK tank led us recruit more people and we ended up with 17 who are everything but MNK or WHM, so its kind of a circus what we have there atm.

Most of them come occasionally due to less interests? I dont know. Others have a HNMLS, so they cant come at times when something is up. So doing 2 seperate runs isnt an option most of the time.

In the end we ended doing very contra-productive runs lately, cant win shit and fail at easiest things.

Hes a good natured guy and cant boot people, warn them or setting them on trial etc. and always sees the good in everyone XD

That's why I said to completly remake the group with the right job this time. You won't go anywhere if you keep thing the way they are. You could always try to endure it until useless people stop showing up, but don't expect to find any magic solution to your problems.



And don't limit yourself to a single setup, you just need 2 DD tank, 2healer and 1 brd. WAR, SAM and MNK all works. Mnk is the best job for Chariot, but WAR and SAM both deal better dmg, and they can tank the chariot easily. Our only DD are War, Mnk, thf, and it's more enough for every zone. If you got a mnk already, finding a 2nd reliable melee shouldnt be that hard.

Having a good WHM and RDM is the best obviously, but lately, we just go with 2 RDM every runs. You just need holy water for ghost (we never bring any and bitch about curse for the next 20min), and be careful with petrify gaze attack in zhayolm. Rdm's nukes also help when you pop both Qiqirn TH with 6 people, or when you try to nerf Bhaf mega. You could probably get a SCH too, but I never tried.

[BlackMoomba]

This is all very good info. Keep it up :D It's helping me with ideas of where I was take my current LS.

[Shassira]

The ideal salvage group size is probably 7 people (because sometimes someone might miss a run, and if you don't have an alternate account to help you in, this can get annoying. Plus, the 7th usualy doesn't bother) or 13-14. Anything more than that is too much, anything in between is a horrible horrible number. If you have as many people as that, you can be more efficient than a single 6-7 party in the sense that you can split the members better suited for their wants than you'd be able with 6. With around 13 people you could in theory always split.

The problem comes when in that group you got too many weak links that end up coming 50% of the runs cripling your ability to split... and with so many people, this is bound to happen at some point or another.

Our group started when we had no idea of how salvage was (no one had any experience) so it was taken like old style limbus, recruited almost an alliance. Slowly some people ditched the group and we added others, but in the end we realized that we could low man everything. Since then i've made my group aware that I couldn't care less if they stop coming, that the moment this big sized group (we are 14 currently) stops working because some people leave or are not useful, i'll break it and continue alone. All I need is 5 more people anyway.

So yes, if you plan on keeping a big group, make sure they realize that's the deal. This is no LS event, like dynamis, where you can go there, be AFK half the event and have 20 more people to back you up so that it doesn't even get noticed. This is an event where the more people know what's happening, the less your leader has to talk or type and the less time you waste explaining things over and over.

Just make them know they are the weak links and if they don't come, not only themselves will be removed, but they will also drag the other weak links with them, since you cannot mantain a group of 10 people that can do the same a group of 6 can. That's just more mouths to feed. (Disclaimer: You can still split 6-4 if you happen to make that work. It's not too bad, really.)