Ethics and cultural conflicts in business dealing

[0ni0n]

Recently, I have been researching about doing businesses overseas, mainly in the 4 prominent developing countries, China, India, Russia, and Brazil. From what I gather, it seems that "gifts", or borderline bribes for the uninitiate, are considered a cultural norm in these countries. For instance, a building permit or business license will take up to 6 months to a year to obtain if you don't show "a token of appreciation" in India or China. Naturally, I am totally against any practices that are unscrupulous, but I also feel that it's inevitable to engage in activities blandishing local authorities one way or another because "that's the way businesses are done here." as a good friend in China put it eloquently. It's also because my view on issues like this is often too black and white, I want to see what you guys think as to whether I am being unrealistic and need to follow the way real world operates.

[Dimmauk]

What kind of bribes would they want in India and China? Straight money or red paint, snake baskets, blue jeans, penis enlargement pills?

[Seraph]

Are you actually looking to sell items in these countries, or are you annoyed that the cost savings of manufacturing in those countries as opposed to your own is hampered because of the local custom of 'tipping' the officials?

[Cochise]

Hang up your business hat and put on your irs tax accountant hat were your scruples will do you some good.

Dead man walking thinking you can be in business and not pay to play...

Steer clear of politics too.

[0ni0n]

What kind of bribes would they want in India and China? Straight money or red paint, snake baskets, blue jeans, penis enlargement pills?

money and gifts such as wine, cognac, and anything in between.

Are you actually looking to sell items in these countries, or are you annoyed that the cost savings of manufacturing in those countries as opposed to your own is hampered because of the local custom of 'tipping' the officials?

Yea, but it seems like no matter the business, I can't avoid dealing withe local authorities.

[Pirian]

I don't really see that as taking bribes - I see it more of a built in price adjustment. Take the postal industry for example. Give them a nominal fee and they'll ship your package, usually within 7 days. Give them a little more and they'll do it in 1 day. The only difference I see is that the bribes your talking about are most likely going to a single individual, or smaller group of individuals.

[Zansho]

What kind of business, if you can divulge that info, we might be able to help you better.

You also have to realize that the countries you mentioned have very different political environment than the U.S., hence why they see this as a "normal" practice. Far for it for me to say "when in Rome, do as Romans do.." but it's very different in China.

[0ni0n]

Hang up your business hat and put on your irs tax accountant hat were your scruples will do you some good.

Dead man walking thinking you can be in business and not pay to play...

Steer clear of politics too.

Hah, I am not above doing what is deemed necessary, I am bringing this up in BG is so as to assuage the guilt I would have otherwise.

What kind of business, if you can divulge that info, we might be able to help you better.

You also have to realize that the countries you mentioned have very different political environment than the U.S., hence why they see this as a "normal" practice. Far for it for me to say "when in Rome, do as Romans do.." but it's very different in China.

Probably import and export, but it pretty much goes in business.

[Linliel]

Probably things like direct bribes aren't so bad ethically speaking. Who is it going to hurt?

I'd be more worried about things like sweatshops/underpaid workers/environmental problems/local social dependency issues when doing business in developing countries.

[Seraph]

Probably things like direct bribes aren't so bad ethically speaking. Who is it going to hurt?

I'd be more worried about things like sweatshops/underpaid workers/environmental problems/local social dependency issues when doing business in developing countries.

From an ethics standpoint, it's more about why you are bribing in the first place, as opposed to what you bribe with.

[Linliel]

From an ethics standpoint, it's more about why you are bribing in the first place, as opposed to what you bribe with.

Depends what ethical theory you're talking about here

Deontologists could argue about what the ultimate duty is here (whether it's to follow the law that is obviously not representative, since everyone seems to break it, or to follow the unwritten law, which says that bribery is okay under certain circumstances), consequentialists would look at what the ultimate outcome is and the worth of that. Virtue ethicists would probably ... hmm, I'd have to think about that one! I'll mull it over while I eat my lunch today.

[MarkM.]

I would say total depends on the industry. I know from personal experience, in the medical industry inside the US, "gifts" are illegal. It's called kick back, and if you have any dealings with Medicare, it's a $10,000 per incident fine if you get caught.

On the other hand, a friend of mine that went to law school and is now practicing business law has told me about countless times he's dropped some serious money trying to win over new clients. I guess this is an acceptable practice in that section of that industry.

Ultimately, my personal opinion on it is this. Is it legal? If so, is it something that the smallest competitor to the largest competitor can do, and not foster unfair practices? And cost vs. benefit, is it worth the amount of money for the business you are going to get?

[Lordwafik]

When in rome, do as the romans do It might feel unethical because you've been programmed to think it's unethical, but since the dawn of time people have convinced others with the power of gifting.

[Shuemue]

Wafik if I buy you a pink gamecube will you set me up with your sister?

[Pikarya]

Special UK White Edition GC or gtfo.

[Khamsin]

Don't forget that some of what you give an official may be respent trying to convince other key players involved in the process.

Just because you give some money to one guy doesn't mean something can happen faster with a snap of his fingers. He then has to go pull some strings with other people, perhaps also persuading them with some of your gift, too.

So what did you really pay for? Those strings he pulled, and the time he took to take care of it for you. You generally don't give gifts to people who are new to the industry and don't know anybody. It's the people who have been around forever and know everybody that you want to persuade into helping you. They're the ones whom people owe favors and who know the key decision makers are.

So really, it is "just a gift", much in the way that you might ask your friend who works down at the permit office to help your request go through a little faster. Only he isn't your friend, so why should he take the time and risk pissing people off with his constant nagging at the office to help you out?

[Killerme]

I know that in regards to the building permit thing, it is not seen as a bribe, it is seen as you paying to expedite the process. In the US if you want a passport it takes quite a few months, but you can pay a fee to have it done much quicker.

[guartz]

Recently, I have been researching about doing businesses overseas, mainly in the 4 prominent developing countries, China, India, Russia, and Brazil. From what I gather, it seems that "gifts", or borderline bribes for the uninitiate, are considered a cultural norm in these countries. For instance, a building permit or business license will take up to 6 months to a year to obtain if you don't show "a token of appreciation" in India or China. Naturally, I am totally against any practices that are unscrupulous, but I also feel that it's inevitable to engage in activities blandishing local authorities one way or another because "that's the way businesses are done here." as a good friend in China put it eloquently. It's also because my view on issues like this is often too black and white, I want to see what you guys think as to whether I am being unrealistic and need to follow the way real world operates.

It's like that here in America too, dude. Ordering food will take forever, unless you, more or less, bribe your waiter. I know, it's morally repugnant, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

[Khamsin]

It's like that here in America too, dude. Ordering food will take forever, unless you, more or less, bribe your waiter. I know, it's morally repugnant, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

True, but there are moral alternatives around bribing your waiter to speed up the preparation of the meal you are ordering at that moment. For example, you can give the waiter a little something extra as a bonus for doing well after the meal instead of a repugnant amoral bribe beforehand when no work has been done yet. If people started doing it that way, it'd be a lot less repulsive in the restaurant industry. On the other hand, you won't be able to "persuade" the waitstaff to serve you better because the bonus would come afterward, so they'll just have to do a good job up front. A lot better arrangement, don't you think?

[Linliel]

True, but there are moral alternatives around bribing your waiter to speed up the preparation of the meal you are ordering at that moment. For example, you can give the waiter a little something extra as a bonus for doing well after the meal instead of a repugnant amoral bribe beforehand when no work has been done yet. If people started doing it that way, it'd be a lot less repulsive in the restaurant industry. On the other hand, you won't be able to "persuade" the waitstaff to serve you better because the bonus would come afterward, so they'll just have to do a good job up front. A lot better arrangement, don't you think?

Hang on, so not only do you have to tip in the US but you have to tip beforehand?