PUP as Tank

[Reynard]

So I'm starting to see alot of posts with positive experiences of PUPs tanking at 50+ once the automaton gets cure4. The overall gist is that there is a frame combo where the puppet will ONLY cure, these cure bombs are hateless, the puppet can convert for nearlylimitless mp, and PUP has relatively high evasion and good evasion gear to begin with. The master himself acts as tank, with his puppet as main heal and another healer in party backing up the tank and others in party. The idea is gaining steam, seems to have merit, and there are lots of people saying "lots of JP are doing it" now.

Here are some threads discussing it seriously:
Pup is a tank
How I tank

My PUP just hit 39 and I'm really enjoying it, and I see huge potential. I've been an effective DD with a sharpshot setup, and been a key debuff silencer fighting mobs in eldieme for a very different feeling. Being able to play a tank role as well sounds great and a sure way to help get more invites once people understand and accept it.

I know there are alot of dedicated PUPs on here like Enitsu,Mioko, Toth and others, so I thought Id bring this discussion here and see if any of the BG regulars have experimented with the concept themselves. I'm very intrigued.

Really regretting that I lost the lot on Storm Manopolas from Assault now, as that seems an AWESOME piece for PUP tanking...

[Khamsin]

The only problem is keeping hate. A WAR can tank with Provoke because they also have damage, and shadows. A PUP has neither damage nor shadows. All they have is Provoke.

[Ollieyk]

Shame their base damage is wank and they wouldn't be able to pull hate from a DRG's wyvern.

[levish]

a very interesting twist, shame that they cannot wear some of the better +enimity equipment

[Demitrius]

You know what? I'd almost bet that SE designed PUP as a tank, and just forgot about the not having voke and no enmity gear stuff. They've made worse oversights before. A guy in my shell the other day started giving reason after reason why PUP is designed as a tank. SE is just probably that dumb.

[aurik]

lolpup

[Raineer]

a very interesting twist, shame that they cannot wear some of the better +enimity equipment

nor accuracy gear

hey reynard /wave

[TsingTao]

Sounds handy for soloing EM-T mobs 50+ as a PUP. Can't say as I'd go out of my way to get a PUP tank for exp though.

Not enough Defense gear/JAs to meat tank like a PLD
Not enough damage mitigaton to blink tank like a Ninja
Not enough hate tools to do either without a THF (unless the other DD are way sad). Even then...

Decent DD & support, but tank? No thanks.

[doofy]

No.....just.....no.

When A.D.D was still in you might have been able to get away with glitch tanking, but on anything that matters it doesnt work. The basis for the current crop of Pup tanks is basically "I tanked crabs in my 5k/hr xp party, it must be a tank".

Cure IV every 20-25 seconds != a tank, and 95% of the enmity gear the job gets is "-".

-Vyzrael (Asura)

[Bananas]

pup = a more useless version of bst.

[spooky]

pup = a more useless version of drg.

FIXED

[Elmer the Pointy]

I'm a 61 PUP and PUP does not make a good tank. When I pull hate in a normal party I get railed for 150+ dmg. The automaton does not Cure IV fast enough to keep a PUP alive. With the support healing you'd need you will lose hate often.

I can get over +40 evasion with gear but it's not that great a difference when dealing with ITs. Plus, the defense values on the armor needed to max out evasion leaves you seriously hurting when an attack gets through.

Also, I'm fluent in Japanese so the majority of my XP time is spent with Japanese parties. They do not use PUPs as tanks. PUP is not the "third tank" of the Japanese world. I don't know how this rumor started; I assume someone who watches too much Naruto got a misconception and ran with it.

PUP's high evasion and access to evasion gear helps with solo play, but should not be relied on to tank in an XP situation.

By the way, the fact that the links supporting this argument both take you to Zam doesn't bode well for PUP tanking...



What I have done with some success is use the Valoredge as a secondary tank. When fighting Toramas, the NIN would need to recast or get screwed by Paralyze/Silence. Even the few seconds it takes to receive a -na spell can leave the NIN hurting. So I throw a Fire Manuever and my robot vokes and takes a few hits for the team. It can really take some pressure off the tank, and with Light Manuever Flashing every so often, a PUP can really contribute to conserving healer's MP and reducing downtime.

Any damage the robot takes is fixed MP-free by Repair... much more party-friendly than an insecure PUP trying to fill one of the most important roles in the game.

Please don't crash a car into my text.

[Sykes]

"lots of JP are doing it"

Why do we still care what JPs do?

[Reynard]

well, PUP can wear the accuracy rings belts and neck pieces, its af body has acc, and eating dorado sushi adds enmity and accuracy. seems like a good start. And those Storm Manopolos I mentioned have enmity on them, but are so /random to get. I assume we'll see some gear in patches eventually to help our options, much like NIN finally started to get tank gear.

As is, PUP tanks will likely have to pick their xp spots and members carefully to make sure it favors their style, and theres plenty of challenges afoot, but hell, the game is getting stale and this area seems like undiscovered territory ripe for exploration. I'm up for it. Definitely seems like THFs and more DoT rather than spike damage jobs would be preferred company to address hate issues. PUP up to 39 has been pretty powerful, active, and fun and definitely doesnt deserve as much lol as it has been getting, which is likely from poorly geared or ill-informed players not approaching the job optimally. I build alot of my own parties anyway, so I'll give it a shot when I can. With the way the ToAU story is going, i kind of expect some major puppet development to happen before all is said and done.

Ninja wasn't accepted as a tank for along time and is now widely preferred. When i started people were all lolmnk and as far as i know nothing really changed and then one day POOF they were l33t. And sometimes Zam actually has good info come out of it if the poster is serious, no matter what tards inevitably comment upon it, whether you will admit to it or not. And if you'll actually READ Enaru's posts, you can see that it is a new style of tanking really and that he has some pretty solid insights about what is working. Hateless Cure 4s is alot of mp and hate that a whm wont have to spend on the tank and I think passing judgement at this point is very premature.

elmer, i assume when you pull hate in normal parties and get railed on, you were not geared and fed like a tank, your maton isnt setup to be an optimal cure whore, and you didnt have defender up. /shrug.

and cmon, wouldnt everyone LIKE IT if there was a 3rd tank option? Like, if it really DID work? even if not on HNMs, atleast for xp?

I of course expected some elitism/ridicule on BG for posting this as I know whats up here, but thought forward thinking might win out as i KNOW there are some out-of-the-box thinking PUPs here that would take the time to add to the discussion rather than dismiss it. You can play the Kuno Zam card on me if you want, but I'm one of the legit thinker types in the game and have done lots of homework. Seeing as the lolpup comments surfaced within seconds of me posting, I can only assume noone bothered to read the OP in the links i posted, preferring to snipe me. Sorry, I got a thick skin and I like it here It does amaze me though how people like to crap all over people trying to figure new things out in this game and regurgitate group-think as immutable fact even when its not. I think we can all agree that PUP is still a work in progress and theres more left to learn about it.

I admit this idea is still in its infancy and is an uphill battle, but it sounds like it may have legs so I want to explore it. If you don't have anything to add of substance, just lurk and reserve the degrading remarks for page10 after we've sunk or swam and Ill be happy to gloat or take it on the chin then. I'll just wait for mioko and others to share their thoughts, and post mine once i find the time to get pup up a bit higher and buy some more gear. Atleast I'm having fun again for the first time in a while...


/wave Raineer. Siren misses you.

[Cheeks™]

pup = a more useless version of bst.

BST will eat your babies. Run.

[Elmer the Pointy]

I also mentioned though that I bought max Evasion gear and have tried out tanking. It just doesn't work very well.

PUPs need to experiment intelligently to find their niche. Saying "JP do it" and just clinging to hope instead of factual results isn't the way to get people to accept PUP.

For example, my Valoredge supporting the tank is a good role for PUP. When I did Colibri's Ranger robot did great damage. When I solo, Cure IVs keep me alive and my evasion gives my robot the time it needs.

To me, and this is my opinion from 61 levels (and tons of soloing), PUP is about equipping the robot to suit your situation. The focus is on your machine and it's frames and attachments. The person behind it is secondary and supplies DoT and commands. Taking the stage and tanking goes against this.

But to find a happy medium I'll admit that PUP could make a good first voker. Provoke the mob, dodge some hits and get a Cure IV if needed from your bot while THF and tank set up a SATA.

No elitism or insults here, just discussing my opinions and experiences.

[Viq]

and cmon, wouldnt everyone LIKE IT if there was a 3rd tank option? Like, if it really DID work? even if not on HNMs, atleast for xp?

I'm pretty sure WAR/NIN and WAR/WHM count as 3rd tank, and BRD/NIN as 4th. This leaves PUP... still terrible

[Mifaco]

hahahaa first provoke

anyways, here's one of the most well-written arguments i've read yet:

And I never said I never tried tanking with my pup. I never said i didn't buy evasion gear. I tried tanking, I bought evasion gear. I even have posts in the PUP forum from several months ago that highlight my experiences with soloing with evasion gear. Please don't assume you know things about me just because I find a major flaw with something every one else who has barely ever even partied with the job let alone played it themselves is patting you on the back for and rating you up into the heavens. Just because an idea is new doesn't make it good. Thinking outside the box is great, but thinking about it badly doesn't do anyone any good.

To be considered a tank class you have to be able to tank in most, meaning 99 percent of, situations. There is little, and arguably, if anything a PLD and a NIN can't tank. They both have mobs where they're less effective, but they can both do it. There are so many situations where a PUP is NOT a good tank primarily because the puppet is paper and you rely on it so much. A tank job is a tank job ALWAYS. Not for a certain level range, not on certain mobs. Always. This doesn't mean they can't do other things too, like DD, but they should always be able to tank. Otherwise its like having a rdm go /war and tanking or a thief/nin or any other job calling itself a tank. Its a bandaid tank. Doesn't make it a good one.

When you get to 75, go to Fafnir and tank him on Pup. If you manage not to die/cause a tail flail/end up having someone else tank for you/cause a wipe, I'll blend my ps2 in peices and eat it. I would love to hear your theories on keeping it alive against wing attack. You are not a tank if you cannot tank to the 75 cap and beyond. You are a temporary replacement and possibly a liability. No amount of evasion gear is going to make the puppet less like paper, more controllable. SE would have to change the dynamics of the entire puppet.

I'm also against the whole idea that people want to find uses for the puppetMASTER when SE should be buffing the Puppet. There's a probably a really good reason the puppetmaster was given mage equipment and a C H2H rating. And its most likely because they wanted the Puppet to be the tank/blackmage/dd, not the master. I would say the high evasion is to protect the master when he accidentally gets hate or the puppet dies. Because there's zero hate keeping abilities on the master to indicate SE ever intended this job to generate much hate on its own. why do you think the puppet has a voke, flash AND shieldbash attachment?

I've seen people call this job a Healer, a tank, a DD. And give very convincing arguements to the people who never even touched this job. The fact remains that this job is still very unfinished, lacks a lot of defining abilities, attachments, and control. It is completely unviable after level 70 when compared to other jobs, and completely useless on HNM. And while I realize that endgame is far off for a lot of people, there is a very large community that won't touch a job that's useless in endgame because its just a waste of time to level something to 75 that you will rarely use in a useful/beneficial situation again.

[Reynard]

fair enough Elmer. When you use Valor as backup tank, how do you deal with the strobe attachment? Ive found the fact that it vokes twice for each fire maneuever to be a liability, in that the main tank may take hate back after their shadows are up, then the puppet vokes again since fire is still active. Seems one situation where the eraser attachment might be handy.

Also, when you solo, what setup have you been using, and where/what lvl ranges/prey did you target? I'd be up for soloing/duoing more if i could figure out a lvling ground that wasn't painfully slow.

I do think the valor head + stormwaker frame only curing was clearly intentional though, and the Galka goldsmith encourages trying out different combos for different behavior. And with bottomless convert fueled mp pools on rdm leading to such power, surely there has to be a way to harness a mp battery puppet to great effect somehow. I also expect more frames and attachments before 2007.

And honestly, in the xp grind when i log on after work and only have a few hours to play, there aren't always a NIN or PLD available. If i can build a party with a PUP as tank that works, even if i have to choose members and prey carefully, then as far as I see it, success. With limited time to play, its not ALWAYS about being the best of the best, and I disagree a "tank" has to be able to tank anything anytime. I totally agree PUP isn't setup to be uber hnm tank. But flexibility is a virtue that fits my playstyle and gametime. I agree with elmer its all about preparing the bot for the situation at hand.

with stoneskin, provoke, and smokescreen etc, i admit it seems like SE wants the puppet to be able to tank, atleast partially. I'm game to try and figure out the right way to use those attachments to a party benefit as well. Hopefully their utility isn't solely for solo play. Too bad the burliest of frames can't cure itself...

I AM trying to approach this sensibly, and I'll contribute my own anecdotal evidence good or bad when I finally can. Enaru's anecdotes make it clear he has success with his tactics, and I only mentioned "JP do it" as further encouragement this isn't total vaporware and hope, but that people are trying and doing it successfully. Until I gather my own tanking experience, I want to gather as many others stories of tanking as I can.

[Elmer the Pointy]

It would be cool to have PUP tank work but if it doesn't, it doesn't.
It sucks to be like "I can tank guys! screw PLD!" and then end up with a subpar party and 5 angry players thinking, "Note to self, never play with PUP again"

Sometimes Strobe going off twice is alright just to take that extra hit or two off the tank. But if it's a liability, I can throw in other Manuevers to clear out the Fire ones. It's good to do this if a THF needs to SA during the fight.

I had to solo a lot in the 50s and I used evasion gear.
Silk Headband+1
evasion+ pants and hands from Windy conquest pts.
Crow gear
and
Valor head + Storm Frame

As for level range, it's tempting to beat on Even Matches and Toughs, but it's slow. I find I make XP fastest (and safest) mowing down DCs. The effectiveness of this keeps falling as now I need 20k to level. But in the 50s it was great while LFP. It reminded me of lonely hours soloing on DRG; can't replace party XP but a couple thousand an hour.

My favorite thing to do was gather like 5-6 RNG Goblins from the Oasis in Altepa and fight through them all since their Ranged Acc is atrocious.
Duo-Trio could be better, I haven't found anyone that could try with me.

On a similar note I'd like to see the effectiveness of a PUP&BST party with COR to buff pets.