Fighter's and Rogue's Rolls weaker since the Sept. update?

[Kylen]

Since most of us NA players have been too lazy/uninterested/busy to do any extensive testing to determine COR roll values before or after the September update, I decided to see what I could dig up on jp sites using Google Translator. I remembered finding extensive parse results of Fighter's and Rogue's Rolls (500 tests for each roll value) before the Sept. update on the jp wiki that confirmed that the bonus for each roll ranged between 2-18% with no job bonus, and 8-24% with job bonus.

It seems that they've updated the roll values on their site since the September patch, and I was very surprised to find that while Chaos, Hunter's, and SAM rolls all received huge boosts in the update, Fighter's and Rogue's Rolls seem to be weaker than they were before, now ranging between 1-15% with no job bonus, and 6-20% with job bonus (Rogue's Roll data is incomplete, but the data they list seems to match up with Fighter's Roll values):

Fighter's Roll Data
(translated)

Rogue's Roll Data
(translated)

I can't seem to find any hard test data supporting these new values on the site, but I'm inclined to believe them seeing as the other roll data listed (Chaos, Healer's, Corsair's, Evoker's, Wizard's) matches up to the values that were gathered independently by NA players post-patch.

The site also lists post-patch Monk's Roll, Magus Roll, Drachen Roll (partial), and Gallant's Roll values, which to my knowledge had never been tested or verified completely by NA players.

Some other interesting things to note:

-SAM, Hunter's, Chaos, and Magus Rolls received enormous boosts in the update:

• SAM roll Store TP bonus went from +3-18/+7-22 to +9-40/+19-50 (without/with job bonus). Expected values for SAM roll are now +23.6/+32.7 Store TP.[/*:m:1s0sp20e]
• Hunter's Roll went from +3-18/+8-23 acc. bonus to +10-50/+25-65. Expected values for Hunter's Roll are now +29.6/+42.6 accuracy, making this roll decidedly stronger than Madrigal (with a RNG in party, Hunter's Roll is stronger on average than double Madrigal).[/*:m:1s0sp20e]
• Chaos Roll went from +4-18%/+10-24% to +6-31%/+16-41% attack bonus. Expected values for Chaos Roll are now +18.5%/+27% attack, making it stronger on average than single Minuet and comparable on average to double-Minuet with a DRK in the party.[/*:m:1s0sp20e]
• Magus Roll went from +3-18 MDB with no BLU in party (no prior data for Magus Roll with BLU) to +5-25/+13-33 MDB. Expected values for Magus Roll are now +15/+22 MDB without/with a BLU in party, which is a pretty decent amount.[/*:m:1s0sp20e]

*expected values are taken into account without Snake Eye or Fold and assuming optimal rolling strategy for each roll. With Snake Eye/Fold, these averages will be slightly higher.

-Wizard's, Corsair's, and Evoker's Rolls received minor boosts to their intermediate roll values, but their lucky #/XI bonuses stayed the same as before.

Anyway, if all of this data is accurate, Rogue's/Fighter's Rolls just lost some of their previous appeal IMO. I think most COR's have discovered since the patch that Chaos Roll is now the #1 melee roll of choice in most cases, regardless of whether a DRK is present in the party. Samurai Roll, which was mostly dismissed prior to the patch as being inferior to other melee rolls, now looks a lot more attractive than before as well, especially when stacked up against non-job-bonus Rogue's/Fighter's.

[aurik]

Best roll for xp is still corsair's roll.

And madrigal2 + horn is 32 acc, so a single madrigal still outperforms a non-ranger hunter's roll. Even moreso with madrigal merits.

[Kylen]

Best roll for xp is still corsair's roll.

Yeah, Corsair's/Chaos/Evoker's will almost always be the best choice for merits, I was thinking more along the lines of Limbus, Salvage, Assault, etc. where you'd want 2 melee rolls at once.

And madrigal2 + horn is 32 acc, so a single madrigal still outperforms a non-ranger hunter's roll. Even moreso with madrigal merits.

True, I forgot about horn (and merit) effects on Madrigal. They're still pretty close, though, and with a RNG (and Snake Eye/Fold), Hunter's Roll is definitely better than single Madrigal.

[Callisto]

Good, maybe people will stop asking me for Fighter's then.

[Zarath]

Pfft @ hunter's and Madrigal in merit :D

I find though that ranger's roll tends to fair much better than either prelude or madrigal alone but generally speaking the difference that makes and breaks meripo extremely negligible. Anyways only really need it for highly evasive mobs, looking at u THF mamool <<;.

And people who asks for fighter's roll or rogue's roll I just ignore them. Sam and Chaos roll fair much better, Hunter's as a 2nd and Corsair's is top for XP rolling.

But shit is situational

[LinktheDeme]

No one's done good testing on hunter's roll as far as i've seen. As far as i'm concerned its % based now and people just haven't tested it to that degree only at level 75.

[Cream Soda]

Pfft @ hunter's and Madrigal in merit :D

I find though that ranger's roll tends to fair much better than either prelude or madrigal alone but generally speaking the difference that makes and breaks meripo extremely negligible. Anyways only really need it for highly evasive mobs, looking at u THF mamool <<;.

And people who asks for fighter's roll or rogue's roll I just ignore them. Sam and Chaos roll fair much better, Hunter's as a 2nd and Corsair's is top for XP rolling.

But shit is situational

Sam roll? Fair better? You pt with all 2 handers or something? Or did I miss the memo where this is better for dual wield or hand-to-hand?

[Zarath]

idk about you but I like outputting my TP gain by at least 24% better <<;

The improvements to SAM/Chaos/Ranger's roll is so great that fighter's roll is shit and rogue's roll is outdated.

[Lordwafik]

Sam roll with a good party is FUN. Getting retardedly high TP gain on thf/nin was one of my funnest COR parties ever.

[Niiro]

I usually prefer WAR roll when theres a WAR in the party but 5 hit setup is very fun with SAM roll.

[Zarath]

Sam roll with a good party is FUN. Getting retardedly high TP gain on thf/nin was one of my funnest COR parties ever.

Should see my COR pts where 11 Chaos and 11 SAM roll is a common place XD my COR was insane with my joytoy build when I just wanted to see what it would be like if I wasn't pulling XD

[Kyreth]

I'm pre-merit on COR, but Hunter's/Samurai/Evoker's cycle makes for happy colibri PT's. They can go with cheap meat and still smack the hell out of the birds, WS like fiends, and I end up being able to yank birds like a leash if I Slugshot/Barrage (right back to 100%) and Slugshot em again. Think I end up with 23% TP per shot with Shark Gun + a good SAM roll and no other Store TP bonuses.

[VZX]

I killed myself getting XI on SAM roll on lv 65-66 PT
Soboro in 5 hit builds = unstoppable

[sephir]

Good, maybe people will stop asking me for Fighter's then.

Im sure you share my pain when melee shout at me for giving Cor/DRK when im in a party with a brd. Cor roll >>>> Fighters.

[Burginator]

Sam roll with a good party is FUN. Getting retardedly high TP gain on thf/nin was one of my funnest COR parties ever.

YUS. I remember the first PT I did after the mega 2h patch... COR RDM BRD WAR WAR SAM, with fighter+SAM roll, on Trolls. Even on WAR, I was getting a 5 hit setup iirc, and all you saw was pretty WS flashes :nikkei: