XP Paladin Discussion

[Howard Roark]

Didn't want to interrupt Ashira/Kaeko's thread with such a basic question, just kinda double checking if I've overlooked anything obvious.

I'm 56 PLD atm, doing fine for hate so long as I pay attention and not get wrapped up in tells or LS chat, unlike other Tp to 100, ws, use zerk/jump/med w/e as needed for various dd jobs.

I flash at pull, engage and voke, cure the puller, cure myself and wait for flash timer; pop sentinel if mp is getting a tad low (I'm elvaan) and this interrupts my usual cure 3 spam on myself.

I read over the parts about hate cap in Kaeko's LJ and the determined values for flash and voke, these would seem to put me at about 1/3 of the cap. I initally looked into it as I was wondering if it was a waste to pop both at start versus staggering them for a more spread out hate level.


Question to the PLD4life's, any tricks I'm missing? As far as I understand, the cure 3/4 hp gear swap is more for /nin as I have no problems having enough damage taken /war for a juicy cure 3/4 on myself, and this would be the only thing I can think of offhand that I haven't started doing yet, due to limited HP gear choices and laziness/inventory concerns.

[Furionstormrage]

In XP, don't worry about hitting the hate cap on something that should die in a minute or less, it's just gonna burn all your MP and it's not worth trying.

The best suggestion I've got, since everyone levels on weak Aht Urghan mobs from 50-some up, is to strap on Shield Skill where you get it for damage mitigation, and pop in ACC and Attack where you get good boosts (Hauby at 59, Life Belt, Attack Earring, ACC rings, etc). You can stuff Enmity everywhere else, and hold hate through a combo of damage dealt, Flash and Voke, and curing everyone like you're doing.

And don't be afraid to use Cover if someone's getting hit.
It's rare when I'm on another job that I see a PLD use Cover, or even know how to, don't be that guy.

Just keep track, and if you're being a serious MP sponge swap to more defensive food or a piece of armor or two, or better yet, fight easier mobs. It's so much easier to be a semi-DD now with Auto-Refresh, Sanction Refresh, and XP mobs that hit like little babies.

[Howard Roark]

yeah i've been using buckler earring since 35, and was very happy for af1 feet

@ haub, my brother is taru pld with 8/8 swd leftover from his blu, and he uses haub religiously

my dmg has been rather lack-lustre despite being elvaan and having capped crits and 5/5 str, besides the fact i regularly lose my tp to colibiri (and also no access to vorpal yet)

i tried tanking with semi-DD at earlier levels but the best i ever did was craptactular red lotus blades for 200+ on soldier crawlers when we were a bit too high for them; i've long since ditched rajas/ulth's in favor of unyielding/mermaid combo

i'll try mixing it up though i guess, although i haven't had much troubles keeping hate, although no one has any spectacular ws's yet that i've PT'd with (no RNGs with sidewinder, no DRGs for penta-thrust, WARs for rampage) had a lot of BLU's MNK's and THF's all of whom had no troubles using sushi with minimal snatch morsels on them -- although if I ever slacked it got eaten *oopsy*

[Sanjiyan]

My hate holding strat, which has been quite successful over the past 15 or so levels (from like late 50s to now 73).

Full DD setup + sushi. Max shield skill where I can get it (buckler earring, shield torque, AF feet full time, boxer's mantle at 70.) Flash + voke at the beginning, and use 1 JA per mob. Cure myself as necessary. Voke whenever it's up, and flash again unless the mob is close to dying. I WS whenever I have TP, using an appropriate WS setup that gives me quite a bit of str, atk, and acc. Sometimes I save TP to WS on the next mob if I find my JAs all down.

Basically I cycle:
Shield bash
Sentinel + Berserk
Rampart
Warcry
Saving WSs to cover the gaps if we're pulling fast

I throw in defender (cancel immediately after using) and holy circle depending on if I need that little extra kick. Of course, I use cover when necessary too for times when I just can't hold hate.

I haven't had trouble with too many DDs taking hate for long periods for a while now. Then again it's possible (but unlikely) I haven't partied with really good DDs, but I think having full DD setup and doing your share of the damage helps out a lot more than any other strat. Too many PLDs I see walking about with a full turtle setup... I can only imagine them only able to hold hate on the first mob, and only because they spammed all their JA on it.

[Kaeko]

PLD has more issues with weaker mobs that DDs can easily rack up damage numbers on.

Back in the old pre-ToAU days, PLD was great on hard IT+ EXP mobs since DDs had a hard time getting huge damage numbers. If you went to easier VT mobs, the DDs would start having issues.

Nowadays everything is an easy mob with ToAU so I can see you having troubles here. The Enmity stuff on the big thread here or my Blog won't help you too much. You simply do not have enough tools to hold hate off high damage DDs on VT mobs in EXP. The formulas for damage and cures are not available at pre-75 so I couldn't give you exact numbers on that.

Just try your best but you're not necessarily doing anything wrong just because you can't keep a DD from getting hate on some squishy VT mob. Only suggestion I can give you is to try pulling since you get a very strong 200 CE / 900 VE pulling bonus. Problem with that would be resting, not being able to tank and pull simultaniously etc. though.

I wouldn't get too discouraged. PLD shines more the harder the mob is because the amount of hate you can produce is the same regardless of mob, but the damage a DD can output diminishes as the mob strength increases. On endgame mobs, PLD (or RDM or NIN) still produces the same rates of enmity gain really, it's just that the DDs generally produce less. Those DDs that do not hold back (e.g. a decked SAM/WAR) can still easily take hate if they know what they are doing just because they can produce enough damage to exceed the generally static hate gain of a PLD. Anything you would see in Merit or EXP party would not allow you to reach PLD's full potential. If for some reason you are not losing hate on these mobs at your level, I would say the DDs were sub-par.

[Kainsin]

I am not a Paladin, but one tip I can suggest from being in many parties with them is to save Sentinel until you can Provoke or Flash. Sentinel brings you up to +100 emnity while it's in effect, so why not use it on a Provoke and/or Flash?

Way too often I see PLDs that have trouble holding hate (understandable in ToAU areas, I guess) yet do nothing except maybe a single Cure III while their Sentinel is in effect.

[Raen Ryong]

On things like colibri, you are going to lose hate. They're just too squishy for it not to happen. However, on mobs like Flame Eruca it is fairly simple to hold hate 90% of the time (because, as Kaeko said, your best DDs are ALWAYS going to be able to get hate from you -- it's not an indication that you are not skilled). Due to the fact these exp mobs are fairly squishy, it makes sense to try to generate hate by causing damage as other people have said, so you basically become a DD with extra hate tools.

Personally, at ~60, I was using;

Sword: Gluttony (not ideal I know, but it served its purpose)
Sub: Iron Ram Shield
Ammo: Tiphia Sting
Head: Gallant Coronet (I couldn't justify saying emp/walkure mask would categorically make more hate than having an enmity bonus on my other hits)
Neck: PCC/Parade Gorget if the mobs weren't dying very quickly [Shield Torque sometimes 65+]
L.Ear: Spike Earring
R.Ear: Buckler Earring
Body: Haubergeon
Hands: Fourth Division Gauntlets
L.Ring: Ulthalam's Ring
R.Ring: Rajas Ring
Back: Amemet Mantle +1 [or High Breath Mantle] (I know this is a level 61 piece)
Waist: Potent Belt
Legs: RK Breeches
Feet: Gallant Leggings

I would use either Sole Sushi or Tavnazian Tacos depending on the needs of the party in question. I would not change around my gear to be a more defensive tank, merely the food I'd use (with the exception of Amemet Mantle +1 vs High Breath Mantle).

In the really fast parties (which are sadly rare due to SO many subpar DD when I was levelling pld <_<) you can eat sushi/attack food (with a bard in likelihood), do a decent share of the party's damage, hold hate, and still not "MP sponge".

[Burginator]

When I was leveling PLD, I just wore full DD gear and ate tacos. Coupled with 8/8 sword merits, my accuracy was still pretty nice, and the damage I did helped more than just about anything else as far as holding hate went. Your WS are always going to suck, period. So losing TP isn't that huge an issue, really, just an annoyance. My suggestion is just to wear *full* DD gear, (Possibly say fuck off @ pcc/cc for shield gorget) and just eat def food. Once you get into the early 70s, you can just start eating sushi/meat also, because most of the shit then will hit you for comparatively less damage than what you're fighting now.

[Howard Roark]

PLD has more issues with weaker mobs that DDs can easily rack up damage numbers on.

Back in the old pre-ToAU days, PLD was great on hard IT+ EXP mobs since DDs had a hard time getting huge damage numbers. If you went to easier VT mobs, the DDs would start having issues.

Nowadays everything is an easy mob with ToAU so I can see you having troubles here. The Enmity stuff on the big thread here or my Blog won't help you too much. You simply do not have enough tools to hold hate off high damage DDs on VT mobs in EXP. The formulas for damage and cures are not available at pre-75 so I couldn't give you exact numbers on that.

Just try your best but you're not necessarily doing anything wrong just because you can't keep a DD from getting hate on some squishy VT mob. Only suggestion I can give you is to try pulling since you get a very strong 200 CE / 900 VE pulling bonus. Problem with that would be resting, not being able to tank and pull simultaniously etc. though.

I wouldn't get too discouraged. PLD shines more the harder the mob is because the amount of hate you can produce is the same regardless of mob, but the damage a DD can output diminishes as the mob strength increases. On endgame mobs, PLD (or RDM or NIN) still produces the same rates of enmity gain really, it's just that the DDs generally produce less. Those DDs that do not hold back (e.g. a decked SAM/WAR) can still easily take hate if they know what they are doing just because they can produce enough damage to exceed the generally static hate gain of a PLD. Anything you would see in Merit or EXP party would not allow you to reach PLD's full potential. If for some reason you are not losing hate on these mobs at your level, I would say the DDs were sub-par.

Awesome thanks, I haven't been getting discouraged, although DD paladin was seeming an unlikely option (got nailed real hard in CN at 52 vs colibiri's for 2k til i dinged 53 -- and wow each level gained is noticeably easier).

I snagged 2 entire levels in 1 PT last night, thanks to a speed belt/toreador polearm wielding beast of a SAM named Uma and a killer THF Liefe tossing 675-725 viper's on me (thank god lol) but even still I woulda been quite helpless versus that SAM haha. Pulling has been on option before but obviously I can't keep hate and pre-pull like our THF was doing so nicely.

Once I can eat food it should be a different story I hope; and I guess I'll remember my advice to previous PLDs when I was lvling DRK, SAM, RNG and WAR, which was just to enjoy the ride lol (I busted out a 2092 LR SE Guillotine on a Colibiri at tower camp as 62drk rofl and like 16xx sidwinder on lessers as 56 RNG with subs -- I was officially told to stop using food haha, it was adding literally 100 dmg per shot due to the BRD and COR buffs %s I assume)

[Genosync]

Even as an Elvaan, this is the way to go ~59 is:

/NIN
Melee style
ToAU camps only
Verm Cloak
Parade Gorget
Melee setup

I barely wore any enmity gear at all from 60->75, choosing to instead stick with whatever could increase my damage output the most. After you're able to get 7mp/tick (JT, Cloak, Gorget, Aht Urghan, one job's refresh), think of yourself more like a WHM/NIN that uses swords and occasionally can do decent damage. Open with Flash, use WS for hate near the beginning of a fight, use Flash for Ichi shadow recasts, drop a Cure IV bomb when someone pulls hate (and they will, so let them). It's not too hard to play it like that, and if you're in the right mindset, it works extremely well.

Sword merits are pretty important for this.

[Howard Roark]

Even as an Elvaan, this is the way to go ~59 is:

/NIN
Melee style
ToAU camps only
Verm Cloak
Parade Gorget
Melee setup

I barely wore any enmity gear at all from 60->75, choosing to instead stick with whatever could increase my damage output the most. After you're able to get 7mp/tick (JT, Cloak, Gorget, Aht Urghan, one job's refresh), think of yourself more like a WHM/NIN that uses swords and occasionally can do decent damage. Open with Flash, use WS for hate near the beginning of a fight, use Flash for Ichi shadow recasts, drop a Cure IV bomb when someone pulls hate (and they will, so let them). It's not too hard to play it like that, and if you're in the right mindset, it works extremely well.

Sword merits are pretty important for this.

yeah i've been wondering what to do when i ditch my 8/8 katana (very bored of ninja) and sword is great for its multi job uses including my aspiring BLU

i'm nervous to go /nin as I don't exactly feel like explaining this to every new member (that and the fact I have to justify my actions a little more as people on this server haven't seen me around for 4 years like my old one) also I suck a bit at ichi rofl

my last concern is i've found quite frequently that flash isn't enough to hold things still all the time, altho the draw of shadows is appealing to reduce hate loss

ah well, i got a whm rdm blu semi static and we grab whatever DD is seeking, gonna try that when i Ding 59 tonight or tmrw although I know my whm will be pissed haha

[shihei]

I agree with Geno on this one, I partied with a pld/nin doing this once and it worked great at 55~ on lesser coli and occasional spider thrown in. He had a THF trick+WS on him but it wasn't definately not needed. Warrior pulled hate but then bam cure4+flash, probably better then voke but I don't know all those fancy CE/VE numbers the kids nowadays do.

[eva00r]

After ToAU camp, consider yourself a DD and always use DD setup to get the best XP out of the camp. EXCEPT you are at the lower edge of minimum lv requirement of that camp.

[desertigloo]

When i did PLD i tried the whole /nin thing for about 10 levels. it really fucked my shield skill and took a long ass time to get it back up there :/ I don't suggest it, esp if you're planning on doing HNMs.
What you do really depends on how fast your particular PT can kill. I leveled with a static mostly, and didnt have time to do flash > PV > flash > PV, i could only do 3, had to stagger which i led with. I'd save rampart/sentinel to grab hate if you lose it after waiting for one of the two timers.
As a taru MP was a godsend
I also leveled PLD before rampart and sentinel did anything, so take that into account >.>

[Genosync]

After ToAU camp, consider yourself a DD and always use DD setup to get the best XP out of the camp. EXCEPT you are at the lower edge of minimum lv requirement of that camp.

Extremely good point.

If you're below the level of the camp, though, you shouldn't even accept the invite in the first place.


Expanding on the point of PLD/NIN before Ni, tanking:

Honestly, let people in your party take hate. As long as you have an RDM, and you do have the 4mp/tick self-Refresh setup, that 7mp/3s is enough in combination with your own shadows to allow you to let people get smacked around without any problems. Let them pull hate, Cure IV them quickly before they get too low (if you let an average player hit very low HP too often, they will stop trying to do as much damage so they don't die), and you'll have hate without issues.

If you're having Ichi problems, judge hate as you're fighting and time your Ichi to start casting right when a melee should be pulling hate.

Save your JAs for when your Mages pull hate, or your MP is nil--do not waste your JAs for when a melee pulls hate. Try to not use Rampart for that if you can help it, and have it macro'd and ready to go the second you see a mob start to cast an AoE--this is a big lifesaver at imp camps and anything else that can toss out AoE magic damage (remember, this will lower enemy WS damage if it's magic damage!).

I had to use PLD/WAR at Lv68 at imps, because I didn't feel like turning down the invite 'cause it was the first PT I got in like two days... and I ended up losing XP overall because of how I refuse to let anyone else have hate on PLD/WAR. Oh well.

Cap your Shield Skill later on with PLD/RDM and just solo some crap while unlocking your Sapara, unless you've already done that. It's not really that hard, and you'll end up capping it if you actually tank HNM eventually anyway.

On Sword Skill:

Best combat merit choice I ever made. WAR, PLD, BLU, COR all benefit, so does Ridill if you've got one. In the end, I sat at um... 8 Sword, 8 H2H, and 4 Marks. Worked pretty well all around, but I did feel the pain on THF of not having those dagger merits. Switch out the H2H for Dagger if you prefer being on your Thief instead of Monk, but those people are few and far between. I wouldn't suggest not having any Marks merits though--that's a three-job thing for pretty important stuff (namely status bolts).

[Howard Roark]

I had to use PLD/WAR at Lv68 at imps, because I didn't feel like turning down the invite 'cause it was the first PT I got in like two days... and I ended up losing XP overall because of how I refuse to let anyone else have hate on PLD/WAR. Oh well.

Cap your Shield Skill later on with PLD/RDM and just solo some crap while unlocking your Sapara, unless you've already done that. It's not really that hard, and you'll end up capping it if you actually tank HNM eventually anyway.

On Sword Skill:

Best combat merit choice I ever made. WAR, PLD, BLU, COR all benefit, so does Ridill if you've got one. In the end, I sat at um... 8 Sword, 8 H2H, and 4 Marks. Worked pretty well all around, but I did feel the pain on THF of not having those dagger merits. Switch out the H2H for Dagger if you prefer being on your Thief instead of Monk, but those people are few and far between. I wouldn't suggest not having any Marks merits though--that's a three-job thing for pretty important stuff (namely status bolts).

yeah no savage blade as yet, altho i may mess around and break it on my WAR so I can ding into it on PLD; no ridill in sight unless I take up HNMs again, I'm tempted to rework my merits as you listed, especially as 2h weapon merits are a bit overkill the way SE has reworked things (obviously i'd go 8/8 if I did relic scythe) also my MNK will always be 100x what my thief could ever be haha, and my faith torque would go nicely with some added marks merits

@ the shield skill, yeah that was a concern of mine, as I intend to use PLD for HNM, maybe I will just /rdm it and break it that way

just so I'm clear, 2x sword for /nin? (sadly Static didn't work out last night so I'm still stalled at 58) I have gluttony for base dmg but I'm hesitant to go gluttony/bastard+1 at 60 (if indeed you inteneded 2x sword) as that's a sht ton of delay, might just do bastard+1 main hand and flachion offhand or something til ifrits

[Genosync]

Well, if you think about it this way, you benefit more from the Haste that you SHOULD be getting with a higher delay weapon anyway, and PLD doesn't have exactly the highest melee stats in the book, and you don't have Zerk and stuff... plus you should still be on Sushi... and you're using your WS to pull hate back, so you want high damage...

Go high damage, fuck delay. And the only time you should switch to a Shield is when you have almost 0 tp and want to Bash, or you're getting your ass kicked very hard 'cause you're at a camp you shouldn't be screwing with.

Also, I'd rather be shooting bolts/bullets in Peacock Charm, and WS in torque... but meh. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

[Howard Roark]

cool, our static rdm didnt log on, f u Noliee! so no 59 yet, grrr but my whm is totally game with me trying out the /nin; and as we start all our parties and grab the needed remaining members i'll probably be able to do this straight til 75 (perdu/joy gogo? -- lack of jsword *sadface*)

gonna work on upping my swd merits when im not on pld

and @ p charm vs torque, ty for the tip, i'll likely try both but not sure how skill works for ranged attacks as yet (wont know til 73 haha)

[Ferien]

PLD can't wear Perdu. Justice, Company, or Hrotti.

[Genosync]

cool, our static rdm didnt log on, f u Noliee! so no 59 yet, grrr but my whm is totally game with me trying out the /nin; and as we start all our parties and grab the needed remaining members i'll probably be able to do this straight til 75 (perdu/joy gogo? -- lack of jsword *sadface*)

gonna work on upping my swd merits when im not on pld

and @ p charm vs torque, ty for the tip, i'll likely try both but not sure how skill works for ranged attacks as yet (wont know til 73 haha)

I hope your WHM enjoys being bored to tears, because you need to heal every bit of damage you can to keep hate at a decent rate with this. Or at least match the WHM in terms of HP cured, along with...

da-da! Enmity set! I macro'd in a shitton of enmity for the longest time, for every cast of Cure, Flash, or JA. It's worth it. And blinking isn't an issue anyway, because it's not like omfg 550 dmg is going to hit you like on an HNM and you need to be targetable (for the idiots that whine about people blinking gear). I think I had like... 23ish enmity. I don't remember, it worked gewd though.

Main hand the highest damage sword possible for you to wear, always. Offhand a Joy or a Justice pending on the mobs.

and um... RDM WHM BRD PLD? This... doesn't work... um... yeah... so I'm guessing it's PLD WHM RDM, but I thought you said you had a bard? PLD/NIN fails without a Bard. And BRD WHM RDM PLD fails period, so I'm kinda lost now.

Skill for Ranged attacks is exactly the same as skill for melee attacks. But I'd rather have the accuracy to ensure I get each shot towards my 100tp as fast as I can, instead of miss one and lose some overall damage speed. I'd take minus 10-15 damage for getting to Side/Slug about 5-6 seconds faster, thanks.