Spacing Sucks.

[Tsutsumiko]

Topic says it all. Why the fuck is this game so spacing dependent?

Seriously. Pisses me off that pretty much a good 2/3rds of the game's moves are unsafe as all hell, turning this into one big turtle fest sometimes unless you're Metaknight.

You can turtle all day with some characters without any real downside (Fuck you Diddy Kong and Lucario) in my eyes. Luc practically thrives on sitting there until you space wrong and then proceeds to whoop your ass with air combos.

This plus the fact that shielding/turtling (edit: to clarify, power shielding is so damn easy. You get tons of advantage on block because of how generally easy it is to powershield anything. It's even easier to do then regular shielding) is so damn easy and grabbing just generally sucks balls in this game makes me a sad panda.

So basically, stay at the very tip of all your attacks hit box range and you're golden. Everyone's Marth!

Except they're not.

/end rant

[AkashiXI]

What are you talking about lol, Melee was just about even to Brawl when it came to spacing. Except you did it with techs (crouch cancelling, L-cancelling, etc). The lack of hitstun makes it more annoying to space yourself because you can get into someone's grill easily after they strike you, but things haven't really changed>_>.

[Ryko]

Welcome to brawl, where the top tiers are top tiers because they can ignore basic concepts and get away with it.

[Nirokun!]

Its a skill you have to learn PP It just looks sexy as hell when you're perfectly spaced and you have unpunishable pressure :Q (and you play someone *coughnotmetaknightcough* who has weaknesses covered by good spacing)

[Ramor]

Welcome to brawl, where the top tiers are top tiers because they can ignore basic concepts and get away with it.

this actually raises a question, what are the tiers/who decides them/based on what?

from what I've heard MK is the #1 rated (mostly? i guess) character, but as much as I like him and realize his overbearing strengths, i don't think I've seen a lot of people who're so overwhelmingly good with him that they sweep over any other character 90%+ of the time, maybe i'm looking in the wrong places though

[AkashiXI]

You are, lol. MK has a plethora of reasons of why he's God tier, but the main are: can't be gimped (Shuttle Loop oheystagespike), insane priority, and rape moves (dsmash, whorenado). As far as tier lists...

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192028

After a full spring and summer of competition, the SBR felt as though it was time to take the first stab at a tier list for Brawl. Before I post it, let me remind you all of a few important things:


1. Tier placement doesn't necessarily reflect your ability to beat your friends with a specific character. You might beat your friend's Metaknight with Sonic, but that doesn't mean Sonic is top tier. It means you win that matchup against your friend. Tiers are not absolute measurements of match outcomes.

2. Instead of measuring match outcomes, tiers are more a measurement of potential of characters against the rest of the cast in a competitive, 1v1 tournament environment. It shows general strength of a character's abilities in a specific tournament environment. So yes, maybe Yoshi is a beast in teams or Ganon is REALLY good with items turned on... but this list measures somethingd different than those things.

3. This list is based on a combination of tournament result data, extensive discussions with top players and tournament hosts and looking at general trends in play in the current competitive metagame. It took a lot of work on the part of some of the best minds in Smash to compile this list.

4. This list might change with time. It is based on how we perceive the game to be and play it competitively NOW. However, if a replacement for l-canceling is discovered or new tactics cause the game to evolve over time, this list could change. So if you main a character that isn't near the top, keep playing and evolving their game. You might be the one, like Chu Dat's Ice Climbers back in Melee, that cause people's opinions to change.

5. That said, don't give up hope! Just because your character isn't ranked at or near the top, doesn't mean you can't do fantastic things with them with enough talent and effort. We do not publish this list to encourage players to change their main tournament character. If anything, it should serve as a challenge to take the game to the next level.

6. In Smash, any character can win in any matchup if you are smarter and better than your opponents by a wide enough margin. So keep playing to win and work hard to be the best player you can be, regardless of which character you use.


And without further ado, I present to you the official SBR Brawl Tier List (v1.0):

Top
Meta Knight
Snake
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
R.O.B.

High
Marth
Wario
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Diddy
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pit
Wolf

Middle
Toon Link
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Bowser
Luigi
Peach
Ike
Sheik

Low
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Pokémon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Captain Falcon

[Ryko]

Nothing like seeing that list 2 weeks ago and people being annoyed that I'm not surprised.

[Kiarax]

Nothing like using tiers as an excuse when I beat your Captain Falcon.

[Ryko]

Nothing like using tiers as an excuse when I beat your Captain Falcon.

Skank if you want to talk to me you know where to find me.

[AkashiXI]

on the corner?

ps: thought you were going to bed EARLY, it's fucking1a.m over there :/

[Tsutsumiko]

Its a skill you have to learn PP It just looks sexy as hell when you're perfectly spaced and you have unpunishable pressure :Q (and you play someone *coughnotmetaknightcough* who has weaknesses covered by good spacing)

I'm aware it's a skill I have to learn.

I'm just upset cause lately, my spacing game has been shit. :/

I play Marth. Marth should just change his name to "Space correctly or get fucking owned."

[Maguspk]

What are you talking about lol, Melee was just about even to Brawl when it came to spacing. Except you did it with techs (crouch cancelling, L-cancelling, etc). The lack of hitstun makes it more annoying to space yourself because you can get into someone's grill easily after they strike you, but things haven't really changed>_>.

L-cancelling did nothing for spacing, it was vertical and only a reduction in lag from aerials.

Wavedashing was a big factor in spacing with lots of characters, it was a fast efficient way to move, especially those character with short wavedashes like Sheik. I loved her wavedash so much.

I agree on the other fronts though, Brawl isn't really more of a spacing game than melee it only feels that way because it's one of the few things that separate good players from bad ones.

[AkashiXI]

ya, you're right, my bad on the L-cancelling, I haven't played competitive melee in awhile so I clumped crouch/L-cancelling together.;\

[AoE]

Don't really care about Wavedashing and such but I really do miss L-Cancelling. ;p

[Tsutsumiko]

Don't really care about Wavedashing and such but I really do miss L-Cancelling. ;p

I don't see why.

Everything in Brawl is auto-L-canceled for you.

Perhaps the only problem you're having is that because it's automatic for everyone, you don't have an advantage over the players who forget to do it 100% of the time.

That sum it up pretty well?

[Maguspk]

I don't see why.

Everything in Brawl is auto-L-canceled for you.

Perhaps the only problem you're having is that because it's automatic for everyone, you don't have an advantage over the players who forget to do it 100% of the time.

That sum it up pretty well?

lol, wut? Everything is most definitely not auto L-canceled. Are we playing the same game? I can think of lots of moves I would love to cut animation frames out of. Just because they sped up a few animations on some moves which were classic examples of the L-cancel's strength (Link's Down Aerial for example), doesn't mean there isn't lag anymore.

[Ryko]

lol, wut? Everything is most definitely not auto L-canceled. Are we playing the same game? I can think of lots of moves I would love to cut animation frames out of.

There are fewer aerials in the game that don't autocancel as opposed to the ones that do. Hell even ike's entire aerial game can be autocanceled except for his fair which has IASA frames anyway. Down air cancels out of a full hop (granted it's not a SHFFL but last I checked his full hop down air hits instantly and for the full height of his jump anyway), back air does out of a short hop, nair does regardless, and up air IASAs or cancels depending on short or full hop. So many characters have autocanceled aerials in this game.

[Tsutsumiko]

There are fewer aerials in the game that don't autocancel as opposed to the ones that do. Hell even ike's entire aerial game can be autocanceled except for his fair which has IASA frames anyway. Down air cancels out of a full hop (granted it's not a SHFFL but last I checked his full hop down air hits instantly and for the full height of his jump anyway), back air does out of a short hop, nair does regardless, and up air IASAs or cancels depending on short or full hop. So many characters have autocanceled aerials in this game.

This.

Perhaps I don't notice it cause I use Marth and Lucario, character's I know which have no landing lag sans Lucario's Up Air/Marth's Down Air but that can be changed based on the height from which you land, meaning yes, even those moves have no lag unless you use them like an inch from the floor. Oh and fuck Snake. No aerials for him unless it's the previously stated sexy b-air, which even that can be canceled if you just jab on landing.

So that's where I'm coming from. I guess it isn't the same for all characters though which is what you're implying.

It's not so much "Are we playing the same game?" as "Are we playing the same characters?"

[AoE]

Has to do with the chars I tend to use mostly sans Game and Watch.

[Ryko]

Game and watch doesnt need auto canceled aerials since they stay out for a fucking year anyway, even on landing >|