Dear Mr.Bob or any C/C++ progammers

[Deejay]

Sorry guyz, incoming "HALP BG!11! I need advice!" thread...

Hi, I'm Deejay. And this is my story:

I'm currently attending college as a 3-D animation major with aspirations to make vidya games one day.

Unfortunately for me, I grew up as a 'gamer-jock' during highschool and spent all my time either playing video games or playing sports. I never spent any of my free time learning how to draw or program (FFXI ruined my life) , but I've always had a passion for games in general.

So, I go off to college not knowing shit about 3DSmax or any other animation-making programs. Since then, I've slowly come to the realization that I really don't like art... wait scratch that. I loathe it. Bless anyone and everyone that can draw, but I sure as hell can't. I know that no one becomes picasso overnight, I just feel that art/drawing really isn't my thing. However, I still want to make games. And since Art isn't really working out, I figured I'll try my hand at the programming side before I completely abandon all hope.

Now we're beginning to get to the meat of my dilemma. I need to figure out how I'm going to approach switching to a software programming major, or better yet, how I'm even going to approach my parents about it. My father is a Columbia alumnus, and I know he's going to let out a hearty chuckle when he hears that his son can't handle drawing and wants to switch to programming. Shit, I can already see him face palming now....

So basically, I need to figure out if I actually possess the aptitude for programming before I make any serious decisions. I know it's not easy. I know it's not for everyone, but I still want to try.

Only problem is, where do I begin? I've never been a huge computer guy and I don't know how to take apart a PC and build it back together. (which is why I wasted your time explaining my highschool life) However, I do have the patience to hunker down and try figure this stuff out on my own. I basically want to sit down with a book and try to teach myself before I decide if I can handle a real programming course. I am mainly looking for a tiny bit of guidance as to where someone should start when they possess absolutely 0 experience in the field. I want to make videogames for either PC or consoles one day, I just need to know where to start learning...

I've been to a couple websites, and they all say that C or C++ is what you need to know if you'd like to learn how to work in Windows. Are there any good (ie. simple [as it gets]) books that I could pick up?

Should I be looking at books literally related to game programming or should I just find ones that teach basic C/C++?

Just spent a couple seconds searching and all I've found so far is Tricks of the Windows Game Programming Gurus.. is that a good starter book? Or should I just look into Game Programming for Dummies?


Any and all help is greatly appreciated. Please don't be afraid to be brutally honest when explaining the complexity of the field either. I want you to assume that I'm a naive nobody who has no idea how hard it is to program. (because I am)

Thanks again for any and all suggestions BG.

[izembo]

the field for programmers for video games is few and far between and if you actually want to get into it you need to go to a specialized school specifically for that.

i went for programming for the same reason and let me tell you, i went through the same stuff with what you're saying with art, i came to loathe the languages and stuff and couldnt stand seeing myself doing it for a living and wanting something simple like CNS instead.

[Fhqwghads]

Game programming pretty much requires that you work insane hours and have next to zero social life. Depending on where you want to be, if you're talking about making game engines and crap like that, you better be unbelievably good with math. Just about any game programming is going to require you to be pretty good with math, and intricate knowledge of C/C++ as well as tons of experience shipping games is about the only way you'll get a decent position.

[Maguspk]

Whatever you do, make sure you don't learn in something like BASIC or Visual Basic for that matter. Things that that will really just mess up your ability to program effectively later on and just start you off on the wrong foot.

I really think if you want to learn how to program you should start with Java. It's a really easy language to learn on and it's object-oriented and dynamic just like C++. C++ is very easy to shoot yourself in the foot with and can be confusing for a first time programmer but Java is much more simple and you'll still get most of the important concepts you need from it. You don't need to worry about focusing on one language for now, you want to create your foundation first and Java is great for that. I don't know any books, just the one I used for my Java class (ISBN: 0-321-30428-4). Also don't be discouraged if things get difficult or you find you aren't as good as others, there is a lot to be learned when you first go into this and people come in at different programming experience levels.

You don't want a game programming book at first, they are gimmicky, you want a good book that will teach you the basics and etch the concepts into you mind. Usually taking a class is the best way to do this, trying to learn out of a book is fine but it'll be much easier if you have people you can ask for help. You can always ask here for help, I read here a lot and other programmers do too and we'd all be more than happy to answer questions if you had them while you were endeavoring to learn the stuff.

edit: You really shouldn't consider the job market for game programmers, you should go into this wanting to learn how to program and if you find you just can't program (everybody can code you just need to be taught correctly) then you can go from there. If you go into this "wanting to program games" that's the wrong mentality because you need to be a strong programmer to even begin considering making something like a game which needs to be visually appealing and very bug free and user friendly to boot.

[Deejay]

edit: You really shouldn't consider the job market for game programmers, you should go into this wanting to learn how to program and if you find you just can't program (everybody can code you just need to be taught correctly) then you can go from there. If you go into this "wanting to program games" that's the wrong mentality because you need to be a strong programmer to even begin considering making something like a game which needs to be visually appealing and very bug free and user friendly to boot.

hmm, good advice. I think I'll sign up for a java course next semester and go from there. I'm just worried about taking a class with expectations that I already have prior knowledge. A lot of drawing courses at my school were considered entry level but the teachers never bothered going through the basics.

[aurik]

the field for programmers for video games is few and far between and if you actually want to get into it you need to go to a specialized school specifically for that.

So wrong. The best game programmers come out of typical universities, not bullshit trade schools like full sail.


To the OP, you ought to teach yourself about flow control by grabbing a compiler and making simple text adventures and stuff first. Once you have a handle on a language and basic flow, you can start learning more complicated software engineering topics.

[izembo]

wasnt talking about trade schools, was talking about schools that actually had a really good specialized program for it, a lot of the top programmers are coming from the same schools, and a lot of companies arent looking at all the schools that teach programming.

[aurik]

wasnt talking about trade schools, was talking about schools that actually had a really good specialized program for it, a lot of the top programmers are coming from the same schools, and a lot of companies arent looking at all the schools that teach programming.

Not true at all. The deciding factor in hire/no hire is really the sample code you'll often be asked to provide, as well as your performance in the interview. It's not like you need to be a MIT or CMU graduate to get your foot in the door, almost any computer science degree will do.

[Amele]

wasnt talking about trade schools, was talking about schools that actually had a really good specialized program for it, a lot of the top programmers are coming from the same schools, and a lot of companies arent looking at all the schools that teach programming.

the way you said it was easily misunderstood.

this isn't any different than any other high demand field. most aerospace engineers working for Lockheed/NASA/Boeing are coming out of the same 20 schools too; for instance.

[izembo]

it's also a huge dream for a lot of people, and it isn't a simple undertaking, a lot of people try and fail

[Maguspk]

hmm, good advice. I think I'll sign up for a java course next semester and go from there. I'm just worried about taking a class with expectations that I already have prior knowledge. A lot of drawing courses at my school were considered entry level but the teachers never bothered going through the basics.

Yeah an entry level Java class shouldn't be assuming any previous knowledge but like I said, if there's any trouble don't hesitate to talk to the teacher and get the help. You will fall behind fast and making sure you understand everything is really important. You can't just learn some things and not learn others, being a good programmer really means knowing how to use everything so you can decide what's best for what you want to do.

I had done no programming prior to college but now I'm published and working as an undergraduate researcher under a professor at my school. The 1043 class (intro) I took for Java was very confusing at first and I even posted a thread a long time ago here asking for help (sometime in 2006 I imagine, lol) with something and aurik (above; he's very smart about the computers and the hardware and the softwares) helped me out. But yeah, just know it'll be tough it most likely won't be a walk in the park especially the later courses, the intro course will just be a new subject and a lot of learning but later on it'll be a lot of new learning combined with applying it and understanding lots of concepts. It's not the easiest major but what you get out of it really varies with what you put in.

edit: Oh yeah, a computer science degree from an accredited school requires a lot of Mathematics and Physics too so you'll want to be good at those too and if you aren't it could hurt your chance of getting the degree despite your ability to program. (That isn't a problem usually though, I mean if you're going for a Computer Science degree and you can't pass a Calculus course something is wrong.)

[Aerin]

Just spent a couple seconds searching and all I've found so far is Tricks of the Windows Game Programming Gurus.. is that a good starter book? Or should I just look into Game Programming for Dummies?

Well, I for one have the second edition of this book and you definitely should not use it as a starter lol.

I go to Digipen Institute of Technology up in Washington. It shares the building with Nintendo Software Technologies, and is surrounded by Microsoft. Pretty sure I'm not the only one who visits this board and goes there.

Anyway, what I've learned since being there:

1) I wish I learned any C/C++ beforehand
2) Wear enough cologne for you and the people around you
3) Girls are only at the Art Campus
4) Be prepared to work 50+ hours on HW a week on top of your 20 credits of classes
5) The deli next to the school is my favorite place on Earth when it's time for lunch

It's a lot of fun, but you definitely have to be dedicated.

EDIT: For books you can start with these. They're intro to C/C++ books. If you want intro to game programming books, just try the ones that say "Game programming for teens" or something like that. You'll see them at Borders and Barnes & Noble.

C Programming: A Modern Approach, 2nd Edition
C++ Primer Plus

[Haelian]

Aurik is right: any computer science degree is more than enough to get you an interview with a game company, but you'll still need plenty of knowledge and samples that you can throw at them. Most CS majors have jobs set up before they graduate with their bachelor's and honestly there are plenty of positions that pay better than game programming in the field.

As far as languages go, most positions require intimate knowledge of C/C++ and/or Java. Visual Basic or ActionScript would only be a plus if anything. If you learn Java then C++ will be very easy to learn next, the main goal is to just get the basics down and really understand what programs are doing and how. Debugging is a definite must: knowing how to read errors from the compiler and knowing how to fix them is essential.

I got my associate's in comp sci last semester and because of my hatred for school I applied to a few jobs in my area (2k Boston, Harmonix, several other companies looking for software engineers). Without a bachelor's or any associated work experience I didn't get anywhere though (that and my code samples kinda sucked, just a Sudoku solving program and a couple of text games).

Edit: Looking at others' source code is probably the best way to get a grasp of what's going on at first, coupled with some kind of resource to tell you what each line does (text book, some easily Googled sites also).

[Beckwin]

Well Deejay, I'd say you're making a smart move. For game art/animation, it's kinda the opposite for programming- the (good) specialty schools are what tend to get the job offers, mainly (imo) because they have game-art projects as part of curriculum. It's starting to branch out a little more, but in the sense that traditional universities and art schools are wising up to the necessity of game-specific curriculum.

I've got a BFA from a state university and I like to think that I'm someone with some above-average artistic inclination, and I'm having a hell of a time when it comes to a job. On top of that, outsourcing is the new hot thing- both domestic firms and to eastern europe (estonia and shit)- so it helps to be able to multi-task (animate/model/concept) and have good technical knowledge. I'm not trying to say it's impossible/beyond difficult just because I'm having a rough time (I'm not that egotistical, believe it or not)... just saying I think you've made a smart choice XD A CS degree can do a lot for you outside of games and iirc it's the highest undergrad salary out of school.

Just general advice/encouragement: if you love it, do it. even if it doesn't make you money (yet). Especially with casual gaming getting hot and the fact that technology is past "halfway to who gives a shit" in terms of visuals, hobbyists/indies have a more realistic chance than ever of going commercial on their own initiative.

[Creeps]

Just be glad that FAU is pretty good about cross credit classes and as long as you're in your first two years, it's pretty easy to switch majors

[Gere]

I go to Digipen Institute of Technology up in Washington. It shares the building with Nintendo Software Technologies, and is surrounded by Microsoft. Pretty sure I'm not the only one who visits this board and goes there.

You are correct.

1) I wish I learned any C/C++ beforehand

YES YES YES.

[Alphavision]

Some general tips for the programming-oriented.

Learn any programming language of your choice, then learning the syntax of other languages will be fairly straight-forward. Keep in mind just knowing how to program isn't enough. You will also have to learn various APIs that allow you to interface with various services (e.g. OpenGL). There are always new APIs being developed and changed. It is a continuous learning process.

For programming a game engine, you're going to need a strong background in math. The main areas of focus are geometry, trigonometry, and matrix algebra. Vectors, 4x4 matrices, and floating-point numbers are the main building blocks that are needed to render a 3d scene.

Keep at it if you have the desire. It's a very complex process to make a game, so don't be discouraged. Focus on short term goals, and build momentum toward your ultimate goal.

[Syntex]

I am interested in the same thing as the OP but rather then going into programming I was leaning more towards game design mechanics or level design but the issue I am having is finding a school that will teach it near me(I live in michigan) that is accredited. I have spoke to several of the guys at midway games and they have told me that these schools you see on TV commercials where they are sitting in Lazyboys with a switchboard infront of them saying "should we put that sound from level 3 in here?" is full of shit and wont get you anywhere so stay away from those schools and as much as I would love to go to digipen its just too far away.

I am still doing research into what I actually want to do specifically and if there is a degree that is tailored to it and finding some of this information is a pain as this is somewhat of a new industry and some people are trying to take advantage of people by offering a degree in 18 months that no one will accept...

[Weltall]

I was going to say this, but most of it has been said already:

1. Go to whatever school you are at, and practice/learn a SHITLOAD out of school from books. You will have to have extensive knowledge to be on the same level as...

2. Move to Cali or Seattle (or Washington, I was going to mention Digipen actually) and go to one of the schools with programs specialized for game programming.

[Fhqwghads]

Just wanted to point out that it seems unrealistic to want to start down the path of designing games without having a firm grasp on any programming language. To me that's like wanting to build a formula 1 race car without knowing the difference between a hammer and a screwdriver. The people who build even modest race cars have an intimate knowledge of mechanics, probably some physics (to eek out that last bit of performance), and probably other sciences I'm not thinking of. The same goes for game programming. It's at the deep end of the pool when it comes to programming. Well, if you plan on doing any 3D game programming, anyway (which I would imagine is what you're thinking about.)

Before you even think about games, just try and write a program that does something simple. Since my forté is Win32, I'll use it as an example. Write a program that creates a window and draws some squares, let's say 25, of varying size that are initialized in random positions on the screen, with random velocities in random directions. Make a collision detection function that bounces them off the borders as well as themselves. Make the window resizable, and make the program capable of handling the resize so that the squares continue to behave as expected (bumping off the sides and each other.) That's a good start to let you know whether or not the challenges of game programming will be for you. Keep in mind that if you do successfully complete this, it's around 0.001% of the complexity of a modern day game engine, or even a game that leverages an existing engine.