Guns in our society.

[guartz]

I think every other thread boils down into a gun discussion. Probably the most discussed topic on BG atm. So i'm making this thread with my opinion on the matter, which is just oh so ripe and juicy for discussion.

***

Gun control:

The logic behind gun restrictions is based solely on the fact that, making guns illegal does nothing to guarantee removal of guns from society. What is guaranteed, however, is a black market and increase profit for gun sellers. You make something hard to get that has a large enough demand, you triple it's price and quadruple the profits and increase the demand, therefore you now have individuals who are criminally inclined selling guns and pushing guns on to whomever has the money. This is why guns are not banned altogether and probably will never be banned altogether.


The other side of the spectrum, lifting gun restrictions altogether, is really not possible given the current social and political disposition.

This isn't an alien thing in American history. Gun restrictions were completely lifted, when the young colonies were expanding westward. The pioneers were armed and sent westward, and once they settled, the demand for crime control essentially gave birth private protection agencies. That is, law enforcement that directly competed with the government. (In a sense how two different companies compete for business) So the west wasn't that wild, not like how Hollywood depicts it at all, where everyone shot each other.
But in essence law was on the side of whomever had the most guns.
That all ended of course, once the long arm of the law reached the alienated pioneers, and the government once again became the dominant enforcement agency.

In conclusion,

Banning guns, counter intuitively, will have the opposite results. Lifting all gun restrictions, will lead to the breakdown of political and legal status-quo. What remains is what we have now, reasonably tight gun restrictions that favor gun companies.



preemptive counter-arguments:

But canada: No, canada did not ban guns. stfu you silly sobs.
lolguartz: lol yourface
Wildwest: Open your goddamn history book. I'm not sending you links.

[Correction]

Because there just aren't enough gun discussions on BG already...

[Khamsin]

I think a better discussion would be what the proper course of action is to prevent shootings.

And no, I don't mean changes to the education system or the way parents raise their kids or providing afterschool programs for teens.

I mean, ways of regulation or enforcement (not necessarily of guns) that prevent or reduce the number of shootings among people who are already fucked up enough to do that sort of thing.

In other words, if gun control is not the answer, what (regulatory method) is? What's the government supposed to do?

[Gryffes]

UK: ~60 gun homicides a year, 60m+ people. Gun Control.
USA: ~10,000+ ( cant find new stats anywhere someone could verify ).gun homicides a year, 300m+. No Gun Control.

Shit I guess the UK should lift it's gun restrictions to lower its gun homicide rate !

[Jodwahh]

Automatic prison time for gun possession in the UK means even the criminals don't really want guns anymore lol.

[Tristam]

What remains is what we have now, reasonably tight gun restrictions that favor gun companies.

You're joking right? There are states where if you've been involuntarily committed to a mental institution you can purchase a gun no questions asked after 5 years. In New York a convicted felon can acquire a gun if they've been on good conduct for a period of time (and yes, good conduct and that period of time are both not defined atall).

I agree that the restrictions favor gun companies, but that's about as far as I'll go. Our restrictions are a joke.

[Rajwa]

I'll just leave this here.

Penn and Teller: Bullshit! Gun Control Part 1
Penn and Teller: Bullshit! Gun Control Part 2
Penn and Teller: Bullshit! Gun Control Part 3

[Brill Weave]

I'm not disagreeing with what people are saying in here, but did we really need another gun thread? I mean seriously?

[Oulanbator]

Guns will never be forbidden in America.
The big guns company are here for profit before anything else, because when someone shoots someone else, they get the dollars.
The countries at war and the under developed country markets aren't enough, so they also sell to their own countrymen for more money.

I'm glad we have laws to forbid that horrible market in Europe... probably because some people value human over profits.

[Suited Aces]

You're joking right? There are states where if you've been involuntarily committed to a mental institution you can purchase a gun no questions asked after 5 years. In New York a convicted felon can acquire a gun if they've been on good conduct for a period of time (and yes, good conduct and that period of time are both not defined atall).

Please provide a link for this.

Because Federal Firearms Laws state otherwise.

Spoiler: show

The basic objectives of Title I of the Gun Control Act of 1968 were to ban mail-order sales of firearms and ammunition, confine the purchase of firearms to the buyer's state of residence, and prohibit certain classes of persons from purchasing, receiving or transporting firearms or ammunition in interstate commerce. Specifically, Title I prohibits dealers from selling any firearm or ammunition to any person who is:

a. convicted of or under indictment for a felony

b.a fugitive

c.adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to any mental institution.

d.addicted to or an unlawful user of marihuana or a stimulant, depressant, or narcotic drug.

e.less than eighteen years of age for the purchase of a shotgun or rifle

f.less than twenty-one years of age for the purchase of a firearm that is other than a shotgun or rifle

g.a non resident of the State in whichthe licensee's place of business is located

h.an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States

i.dishonorably discharged from the armed forces

j.subject to a court order that restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner

k.convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence

And yes private sales (i.e. the gunshow loophole) are supposed to follow these guidelines as well.

[Tristam]

Firearm Laws for New York

Rifles and Shotguns: A person who has been convicted of a felony or other serious offense may obtain a certificate of good conduct which will then permit him to possess rifles and shotguns.

I can't find documentation on the mental health issue, but I know Illinois sets the bar at 5 years for purchase or carry.

Here's california:

8103.
(f) (1) No person who has been (A) taken into custody as provided in Section 5150 because that person is a danger to himself, herself, or to others, (B) assessed within the meaning of Section 5151, and (C) admitted to a designated facility within the meaning of Sections 5151 and 5152 because that person is a danger to himself, herself, or others, shall own, possess, control, receive, or purchase, or attempt to own, possess, control, receive, or purchase any firearm for a period of five years after the person is released from the facility. A person described in the preceding sentence, however, may own, possess, control, receive, or purchase, or attempt to own, possess, control, receive, or purchase any firearm if the superior court has, pursuant to paragraph (5), found that the People of the State of California have not met their burden pursuant to paragraph (6).

[guartz]

Because there just aren't enough gun discussions on BG already...

There is obviously a demand.

[guartz]

I think a better discussion would be what the proper course of action is to prevent shootings.

And no, I don't mean changes to the education system or the way parents raise their kids or providing afterschool programs for teens.

I mean, ways of regulation or enforcement (not necessarily of guns) that prevent or reduce the number of shootings among people who are already fucked up enough to do that sort of thing.

In other words, if gun control is not the answer, what (regulatory method) is? What's the government supposed to do?

This is oddly irrelevant to the gun control issue, which says a lot.

[Suited Aces]

Firearm Laws for New York

Rifles and Shotguns: A person who has been convicted of a felony or other serious offense may obtain a certificate of good conduct which will then permit him to possess rifles and shotguns.

I can't find documentation on the mental health issue, but I know Illinois sets the bar at 5 years for purchase or carry.

Here's california:

8103.
(f) (1) No person who has been (A) taken into custody as provided in Section 5150 because that person is a danger to himself, herself, or to others, (B) assessed within the meaning of Section 5151, and (C) admitted to a designated facility within the meaning of Sections 5151 and 5152 because that person is a danger to himself, herself, or others, shall own, possess, control, receive, or purchase, or attempt to own, possess, control, receive, or purchase any firearm for a period of five years after the person is released from the facility. A person described in the preceding sentence, however, may own, possess, control, receive, or purchase, or attempt to own, possess, control, receive, or purchase any firearm if the superior court has, pursuant to paragraph (5), found that the People of the State of California have not met their burden pursuant to paragraph (6).

I found this version of the California code 8103. It states :
unless there has been issued to the person a certificate by the court of adjudication upon release from treatment or at a later date stating that the person may possess a firearm or any other deadly weapon without endangering others, and the person has not, subsequent to the issuance of the certificate

So in both the New York and California cases, you still need to obtain a certificate stating you are of sound mind before you can purchase a firearm. Sounds a bit more complicated than the "no questions asked" scenario you first described, but then again I have no idea what it takes to get the certificate.


Don't get me wrong, I'm all for stricter gun control measures. Extensive background checks, reasonable waiting periods, limits on purchases per month, registrations, whatever. If, however, I pass all the tests and jump through all the hoops, let me buy whatever the fuck I want. An outright ban on all semi-auto handguns and "assault" rifles is just plain bullshit, and it does nothing to address the fact that there are millions of firearms in circulation already.

[kuronosan]

This thread is just a can of worms.

Can anyone here honestly tell me what they need an assault rifle for? Or any automatic weapon for that matter?

A 9mm handgun is usually enough to ward off people looking for trouble and most handguns are good enough to take care of any self-defense scenarios.

The problem is that there isn't enough regulation. I can order a damn gun from craigslist, for crying out loud.

Gun sales should be limited to vendors, and should be heavily related and regulated depending on background checks, tests, demographics, and other various means.

You don't just hand a gun to some smart looking kid because you don't think he'd ever shoot someone. We need to start treating guns less like a right and more like a responsibility.

Come to think of it, we need to do that with everything in the US. Everyone acts like text-messaging, internet, and all this other shit in the country is a right. It's not a right, it's a privelege.

Quit bitching about the constitution and do the right thing.

[Rajwa]

Can anyone here honestly tell me what they need an assault rifle for? Or any automatic weapon for that matter?

The upcoming zombie apocalypse.

[Maxxthepenguin]

If we were starting with no guns and I had to make the decision to allow private citizens to carry concealable firearms, I would say no, however, there are too many around to ban them. People are too attached to guns. They're an important American industry, like it or not (I sure as hell don't.) At this point, I don't think banning guns would do much if any good.

[Khamsin]

This is oddly irrelevant to the gun control issue, which says a lot.

Isn't the whole point of gun control to prevent or reduce the number of (illegal) shootings?

If we were starting with no guns and I had to make the decision to allow private citizens to carry concealable firearms, I would say no, however, there are too many around to ban them. People are too attached to guns. They're an important American industry, like it or not (I sure as hell don't.) At this point, I don't think banning guns would do much if any good.

Wonder if there will ever be a government bailout of the gun industry, as important to the American economy as it is.

[Kerberoz]

UK: ~60 gun homicides a year, 60m+ people. Gun Control.
USA: ~10,000+ ( cant find new stats anywhere someone could verify ).gun homicides a year, 300m+. No Gun Control.

Shit I guess the UK should lift it's gun restrictions to lower its gun homicide rate !

Where are the numbers for total homicides per capita? I only see gun homicides.

Are you really stupid enough to believe that people wouldn't just murder with knives, crossbows, bombs, fire, etc if they couldn't obtain a gun?

[Tristam]

Where are the numbers for total homicides per capita? I only see gun homicides.

Are you really stupid enough to believe that people wouldn't just murder with knives, crossbows, bombs, fire, etc if they couldn't obtain a gun?

NationMaster - Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country