Point Allotment, Good idea? Horrible idea? In final version?

[cassiraa]

I didn't see a thread about it, but has SE announced if Point allotment is going to be in the final version?

It seems like pretty much the worst idea ever in my opinion. In XI [I know this isn't FFXI] I would regularly change my job 3-4 times a day depending on what LS events were planned.

If I am a marauder and my stat allotment was 40% str, 40% vit 20% dex, and my LS says they need me on a mage job where I should have 50%+ int or piety, I can see that being very annoying and something that most players won't see surface in beta since a lot of people only are leveling 1-2 jobs at the time. Most people who level a second class will not pick one that uses the same stats, since the point of a 2nd job is to do something you couldn't do on your primary.

I don't think that "oh galka deserve more str than taru" But I'd like to believe that at least having different stats for different classes, even if each block is player-assigned. Someone had mentioned in another thread that it took them 5 hours to reassign stats from 81 STR, 82 VIT and 15 everything else, to 82 MND, 81 PIE due to how often you're allowed to reallocate stats.

disclaimer: I'm only a dozen levels into the game, so I haven't dealt with it much myself, but I'd love to hear other people's opinions and speculation. If this has been discussed in depth, feel free to lock and point me in the right direction.

[Hyan]

The class system XIV uses is the only system where I could see point allocation actually working.

I want to see how it ends up, there is potential if it's done right.

Also, RANDOM QUESTIONS AND SPECULAZION

[cassiraa]

Also, RANDOM QUESTIONS AND SPECULAZION

I put it in random questions / speculation like 3 pages back, and not a single response. So I decided to thread it. Could you clarify why you think it would work in XIV's job system?

My biggest concern is the idea of wanting/needing to do something polar different like switching from tank to mage.

edit: I suppose the lack of response could mean nobody else cares, but, I do
To me it seems like it could be an issue and require someone to have 2 chars for their different classes, as opposed to being able to switch to what you need to be when you need to be it on one char with one set of R/Ex-es.

[Hyan]

Because you can switch between classes pretty much freely, unlike in XI where you're locked to a single job for the duration of the activity.

[omegaB]

I think this game in this current system benefits a lot from the current stat allocation thing. you can reset your stats in a few hours if you really want to, but not instantly, it gives you an advantage and allows for customization so that every two players isnt exactly the same, its especially important for some classes which can have very different playing styles and use cross skill disciplines. conjurer can go heavy support and dot for example so that mind and piety are most important, or go glass cannon so int is most important stat. some mages may specialize in fire and another in ice.
most melee can go multiple directons as well, accuracy vs attack, defense vs attack, a gladiator could for example pump int and elemental to be a rdm of sorts. the system allows you to try out many things and adapt, without making everyone the same, or keeping you pigeonheld forever.

Basically if they want to make a system where you can tailor make your chrs abilities and playstyles, having a hard stat allocation for every class would make it much less viable

[Kirb]

I personally like the stat allocation for a variety of reasons, and I think the restrictions it gives prevents abuse of the system. I'm sure there's a little tweaking to be had, though.

[Lyle]

If such a system was implemented it would force those like myself to pretty much spread all stats evenly across, though as long as the side effect isn't debilitating , is fine.

[omegaB]

Why? you can fully respec in like 3 hours. and if your goin on semi close jobs you wouldnt need a full respec.
basically every 15 min or so, you can shave off a % of your stats, for most things you'd only need 1 or 2 repecs unless your going totally opposite directions.

Its like you dont go from say physical attack pug to magic attack thaum, but going from pug to lancer marauder is miniscule change, even then you could start with a slightly balanced build and alter it in say 15 min to something workable.

they also got traits to alter your skills more without actual respecs

[Kupo]

I think its counterintuitive to a system that allows, even encourages, you to change classes. However, I like the idea of picking my own stats if I could do so for each class. Maybe I want my PUG to focus on Dex over Str, maybe I want my GLD to have some stats in magic usage. That kind of point allotment I like, but not one set of stats for numerous classes. I don't understand why anyone thinks having to wait hours to fix your stats is a good thing.

[Kirb]

It encourages creating hybrids, for one. The closer to the middle you are, the easier and faster it would be to switch to melee or mage stats. And I'm not sure if a somewhat even spread will be as gimpy as people might assume it to be.

It also makes you have to give your progression some thought, and kind of invokes a sense of specialization, which I personally like.

[Kupo]

It encourages creating hybrids, for one.

Why is that a good thing? I hate hybrids. Well, to each their own, I suppose.

Maybe that's what it all comes down to... people who like to Min/Max will dislike the system and people who enjoy hybrids will like the system.

[Ae Cha]

It encourages creating hybrids, for one. The closer to the middle you are, the easier and faster it would be to switch to melee or mage stats. And I'm not sure if a somewhat even spread will be as gimpy as people might assume it to be.

It also makes you have to give your progression some thought, and kind of invokes a sense of specialization, which I personally like.

I think it does the exact opposite, actually. Hybridization will probably be fine in the beginning of the game, but once people start getting acclimated to the mechanics and start reaching end-game, people will just get shoehorned into cookie cutter min/max distributions if they want to play in group settings. It's unlikely anyone will want to play with a "red mage" gladiator any more than anyone would want a WAR/SMN; the idea sounds cool on paper, but when you get down to it, the sub-par secondary abilities you get aren't enough to make up for the huge hit you take to your primary stats. Hybridization has to be built into the parent class mechanics itself to be viable (i.e. PLD vs. WAR/WHM, DRK vs. WAR/BLM, etc.).

With the attributes system, it really feels like FFXIV has even less class flexibility than XI. In XI, you could just go to your mog house and change your job with no penalty, since stats were dependent on gear; in XIV, it takes hours to reallocate stats, so while you can probably change classes within the same role smoothly, switching from, say, a Lancer to a Conjurer is going to be so cumbersome that I don't think people are even going to bother. It'd be much easier to just have a separate tank character, a physical DD character and a caster character if you want to be able to fill every role.

I think it would be much more conducive to class changes if it were only limited by gear and level; while unrestricted class changes on the field sounds pretty OP in the context of existing MMOs, it's not impossible for encounters to be specifically built with class swaps in mind.

Maybe that's what it all comes down to... people who like to Min/Max will dislike the system and people who enjoy hybrids will like the system.

Hybrids will love the system, level to endgame and then hate the system when encounters and the community inevitably don't support their play style (see: vanilla WoW).

[Kirb]

You don't think people will be making hybrids acceptable and useful for endgame? No Paladins? (Gladiator with Cures/buffs for hate), Dark Knight (Marauder with Stat-draining spells) Red Mage builds for soloing and kiting, etc etc etc.

I'm not saying that you HAVE to be a hybrid. I won't be. I was just pointing out the benefit that a hybrid class would have compared to a pure caster or melee.

[Kaylia]

I dont see the point unless they want to give players an incensitive to buy 2 characters (1 mage and 1 melee). It's simply pointless right now

[Battlecat]

I think min/maxing in this game is more about min/maxing for the activity and not the job. You can min/max, but only for one class at a time to preserve game balance while keeping the change jobs anywhere mechanic. For instance. If you go into an instance knowing that for X boss we need lots of melee DMG and for Y boss we need lots of magic DMG. You can have your melee DDs switch to their gimpy version of Conj for the magic DMG boss to help out your fully speced magic users and vice versa for the melee DMG boss. So maybe each one takes a little out of it's less important stats and throws it into str/int to help out a bit more when the time comes to switch it up. Not to mention, if a healer d/c's, you can still have someone switch to their healing class to help back up til the other one gets back. Just b/c you can't min/max for every class all at once doesn't make it useless, and it certainly doesn't mean you need multiple characters. Just means you have to pick which one you want to be the best at for the next 3 hours. I do think they should shorten it, unless it's that long for a reason that will become more clear once endgame content comes out. I do think they should at least make in town respecs unlimited, but 3 hour CD in the field. But who knows, there's nothing that says the current respec system will even be the one we see at retail.

[omegaB]

the alternative of point allocation would ruin this game, the idea is that your class can go in many directions, if your stats are fixed this is very limited. If you want to be great at anything in an instant, then yeah this sucks, but if you want to be able to adapt overall, its pretty good. How do you balance the many roles a job can play if your stats are statc for that job? You can choose to specialize, you just cant specialize in everything at the same time.
BTW class change mid combat is out the game totally in this version of the beta, if anyone in the party is engaged, they wont let you change class or gear. this may change, but that mechanic is apparently not an option. you could change between engaging mobs though.

[arus2001]

I'd just say keep the small, free windows of allocation, and then maybe have an NPC in town that can reset you for a fee high enough to promote not doing it every hour. Hell, could put a 3 hour cooldown on that, too.

[Ae Cha]

You don't think people will be making hybrids acceptable and useful for endgame? No Paladins? (Gladiator with Cures/buffs for hate), Dark Knight (Marauder with Stat-draining spells) Red Mage builds for soloing and kiting, etc etc etc.

I'm not saying that you HAVE to be a hybrid. I won't be. I was just pointing out the benefit that a hybrid class would have compared to a pure caster or melee.

The math never works out that way. Those cure/buffs for hate and magic stats aren't core mechanics that come supported by the class like paladins'; you have to actually sacrifice something to get them. You're not going to have a Paladin, you're going to have a Gladiator with mathematically subpar core defensive/damage/enmity ability traded off for largely unsubstantial magic ability. This might be good for solo or small groups, but the larger the raid, the more it turns into a straight numbers game.

Hybridization is also severely limited by available gear; if paladins had to use cloth healing gear to be able to augment their magic abilities at all, they'd probably be pretty shitty, too. There will need to be an availability of gear that supports hybridized stat distributions for it to work. SE might put in a ton of gear with good, variable stat splits that supports different kinds of play styles -- but with the way they've struggled to make entire core classes in FFXI not totally useless end game, I'm really not seeing them putting terribly much effort into supporting hybridization.

People are certainly going to use cross-class abilities -- you're probably not going to give up much to put a cure spell on your bar, even if it's gimp -- but I'm doubting that hybrid stat allocations are going to be very viable, assuming stats still make a difference endgame.

Even in a non-hybrid context, there's probably not going to be much variability in stats in practice. Nobody is even going to spec a high-VIT Conjurer; they'll spec as much VIT as they need to not be one shot and they'll dump the rest into magic skills. The optimal mathematical balance of magic skills will be posted up on the third party sites and everyone will copy those (and the community will demand everyone copy them). Cookie cutter always reigns supreme, and it takes a really fine balancing act to work multiple cookie cutters into one class.

On the other hand, stat distributions might end up totally useless. Unless gear actually scales to base stats (e.g. Mage Hat +1 gives you +1% to INT instead of a flat +10 to INT) or is all Dune boots type stuff, gear will probably end up totally eclipsing manually set stats. If that's the case, there's probably no point in the system at all; if that's not the case, how will character development be handled at the level cap?

[Sparhawk]

I just don't know how I feel about the system and I don't think many will until we get to look at it from the end game point of view. I personally would prefer if the stats had a "merit point" system feel where someone meriting out a stat wouldn't create huge gaps in damage but enough where someone could argue it makes a difference.
If they do play a huge role I'd would like some way to change them completely in town with a cool down or even a fee.

my fear isn't cookie cutter stat allocations but rather your "stuck" into 3 basic roles of tank/melee/mage and it taking awhile to reallocate my stats to fit another of those 3 roles.

side note and question - anyone else who just got into beta 3 having trouble posting on the beta forums? my friend and I both can't seem to do it and I can't seem to submit any feedback.

[Uzor]

Are we even sure this stat allocation system will be the one in the final game?

I don't think we do.

For all we know, the way stat allocation works now is only a temporary solution for beta. In the final game there might be a quest or a Deity Favor thingy that allows you to reallocate all of your stats at once.I don't think there's much use speculating how it will benefit or ruin the final game based on how it works now.