[GM]Graston>> A party is self-regulated

[Beckwin]

Apparently, being in a party with someone can completely absolve you from wrongdoing. I won't bore you all with a bunch of chatlog pics, but the summary is as follows:

-some blm sends me a tell offering 100k to kill his AF hat mob
-I agree, in tell. 100k in half an hour, why not?
-I'm invited to the party and join.
-Go and kill the NM, said blm escapes and goes back to town.
-I head back to town, and he starts talking about "thanks for the free help"
-I remind him of the agreement, he admits that he isn't gonna uphold it
-I send a GM call, blm disbands/logs off. I don't really care that much about the money and naively getting hosed out of 100k isn't the worst thing that could happen, but the blm was a little cocksuck and it'd be nice for him to end up in Gaol.
-Graston gets in contact with me, I tell him what happens, etc
-basically comes down to that because we were in a party, the GM staff cannot do anything about it

I will include one screenshot in this post:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...t/crappygm.jpg

Pretty cool! Personally I think the GM was just bullshitting me, using the party as a cop-out from having to do anything. The agreement was made before we were partied, and fulfilling his end has nothing to do with being in a party. While not a tradescam, this specific sort of situation is mentioned in the GM Manual as a form of griefing/abuse of trust with deceitful intentions. Not here to qq about the 100k, but I thought it was interesting how the GM handled it. Could it really be that SE policy is that if players are partied, just about anything goes?

Also, for as much as the GM said being partied means he can't do anything, I couldn't find it anywhere in the manuals. If anyone knows what heading it's under, speak up.

[The Stig]

Howcome you didn't take the money off the BLM first thing? Then again there is the problem of the other side not trusting you, but since you're going out of your way, I'd have taken the money first.

[Metah]

Howcome you didn't take the money off the BLM first thing? Then again there is the problem of the other side not trusting you, but since you're going out of your way, I'd have taken the money first.

Generally you receive payment after the deed is done. No one is going to pay you for work you haven't done yet (unless your a hooker or something).

Graston is a pretty huge douche though.

[ringthree]

I think its just another example of everything GM-related in the game is all determined by the GM that you get.

If you want to presue it just contact another GM and ask to speak to a senior GM. In general I have found that Senior GM's are more likely to persue action against other players and that they tend to actually enforce rules.

[ringthree]

Howcome you didn't take the money off the BLM first thing? Then again there is the problem of the other side not trusting you, but since you're going out of your way, I'd have taken the money first.

Generally you receive payment after the deed is done. No one is going to pay you for work you haven't done yet (unless your a hooker or something).

Graston is a pretty huge douche though.

Different people play the same GM characters, so attritubing "doucheness" to a GM character really doesn't mean much.

[Beckwin]

Oh, I admit to naivety; I should have asked for the money first. Even so, what happened was a violation of the user agreement, but apparently being in a party with the guy (you know, to do the quest he was paying me for) made it so the GM was unable to act.

If this really is protocol, there's possibility for some baaaaad loopholing.

[The Stig]

Howcome you didn't take the money off the BLM first thing? Then again there is the problem of the other side not trusting you, but since you're going out of your way, I'd have taken the money first.

Generally you receive payment after the deed is done. No one is going to pay you for work you haven't done yet (unless your a hooker or something).

Graston is a pretty huge douche though.

That's true. I guess the job isn't all big in advance, and there's no papers/contracts are anything here....

Note to self: Ask for a deposit if this happens.

The GM seemed rather in a hurry/bored with his job. I guess the fact that he probably goes through several similar calls a day/week/month made him to be like that. He didn't sound like the normal GMs from the manuals either. Nothing like "I'm sorry to hear that" bullshit. He was very direct

[Metah]

Yeah, asking for half the payment in before and the other half after generally receives better response, but I suppose that isn't the issue at hand here.

I wasn't aware one GM played several characters.

[Beckwin]

Well to be fair, I had been talking to him for 20 minutes. He kept up with the "in a party, I can't do anything" route and I kept explaining that the agreement was made between individuals before we both were in a party; they party chat is just where the guy admits to griefing.

Still can't find anything that says GMs can't do anything about something that kind-of occurs in a party. Looks like next xp party you're in, you can tell that shitty rdm how you *really* feel, lol.

[Therin]

Howcome you didn't take the money off the BLM first thing? Then again there is the problem of the other side not trusting you, but since you're going out of your way, I'd have taken the money first.

Generally you receive payment after the deed is done. No one is going to pay you for work you haven't done yet (unless your a hooker or something).

Graston is a pretty huge douche though.

That's true. I guess the job isn't all big in advance, and there's no papers/contracts are anything here....

Note to self: Ask for a deposit if this happens.

The GM seemed rather in a hurry/bored with his job. I guess the fact that he probably goes through several similar calls a day/week/month made him to be like that. He didn't sound like the normal GMs from the manuals either. Nothing like "I'm sorry to hear that" bullshit. He was very direct

Well, from the context it seems like Beckwin's conversation with the GM had been going on for about 25 minutes, so I'd imagine he's somewhat irked.

I've had a conversation with a GM that started out rather nice (as they usually are) but ended with the GM yelling at me for quoting the GM manual at him and telling him that he's making rules up. (He claimed: "We are not allowed to go to watch any group fight a monster as it is considered player favoritism." What kind of bullshit is that? lol, I've had GMs at my Khimairas and Fafnirs and Tiamats tons of times - so where did this rule come from?)

[shirizaan]

Clearly this forum needs more players bitching about a GM simply because he didn't do what they thought he should.

[Therin]

Clearly this forum needs more players bitching about a GM simply because he didn't do what they thought he should.

Clearly you missed the point of the OP.

[Beckwin]

Clearly this forum needs more players bitching about a GM simply because he didn't do what they thought he should.

Not here to qq about the 100k, but I thought it was interesting how the GM handled it. Could it really be that SE policy is that if players are partied, just about anything goes?

yeah gofkurself. I'm no stranger to GMs not doing shit, but it was the particular line of reasoning he gave that I thought was interesting. This isn't a "zomg he isn't banning the botters/rmts" or "jesus why wouldn't he flail those fuckers holding Faf for 20 mins" kind of thing.

Anyway, trying to get in touch with a SGM now.

[suji]

I'd say you screwed yourself, Beckwin. People who shout for stuff like that probably do it because they have no friends, and people who have no friends are likely to be douchebags. ;p You should have gotten him to give you 50k up front and 50k after.

[dyluck]

That GM actually seems a lot cooler than some of the other GMs from chatlogs I've seen posted here. For once, it actually sounds like a real person rather than a script-reading robot.

Personally I wouldn't call a GM if this happened to me. There is no way in this game of holding a player to his word aside from using the trade window and you should realize that. It's too bad there are players like this, but you should have expected such was a possibility and taken precautions to not end up in a situation like this. The GMs arent here to protect you from this sort of crime, I'm afraid. They have bigger fish to fry when it comes to breaking the ToS such as catching hackers, botters, RMT, mpkers, etc. Not to mention non-ToS problems like helping people who get stuck/glitching issues etc. This is what they focus on. A player's reputation is his own responsibility, and it should also be your first concern if you plan on dealing with him. When a player does something like this, it is this natural law that forever seperates him from the upper echelon gaming community, and keeps him clinging to the bottom of the barrel LSs that will never amount to anything. Hes fucking himself over in other words. To protect yourself, you have to use your own common sense by either playing with someone you know and trust, getting paid half before and half after the fact, or forcing the player to put up some sort of collateral beforehand.

[Remyo]

That GM actually seems a lot cooler than some of the other GMs from chatlogs I've seen posted here. For once, it actually sounds like a real person rather than a script-reading robot.

Personally I wouldn't call a GM if this happened to me. There is no way in this game of holding a player to his word aside from using the trade window and you should realize that. It's too bad there are players like this, but you should have expected such was a possibility and taken precautions to not end up in a situation like this. The GMs arent here to protect you from this sort of crime, I'm afraid. They have bigger fish to fry when it comes to breaking the ToS such as catching hackers, botters, RMT, mpkers, etc. Not to mention non-ToS problems like helping people who get stuck/glitching issues etc. This is what they focus on. A player's reputation is his own responsibility, and it should also be your first concern if you plan on dealing with him. When a player does something like this, it is this natural law that forever seperates him from the upper echelon gaming community, and keeps him clinging to the bottom of the barrel LSs that will never amount to anything. Hes fucking himself over in other words. To protect yourself, you have to use your own common sense by either playing with someone you know and trust, getting paid half before and half after the fact, or forcing the player to put up some sort of collateral beforehand.

scamming is a pretty big fish, also they have the chat logs available(for 10 days) to check for these deals.

[Scorp]

The last GM i spoke to told me that they each had their own account and it was them only. Maybe he just had a shit day and was about to finish? If that was the end of a 25min convo and he should have finished 10mins earlier he'd be direct etc.

Certainly doesn't seem like the protocol we've seen before.

[Beckwin]

Ok again, I admit to bone-headedness for not getting gil up front. Again, no biggie; a half-hour jaunt to Canal and back and a potential 100k isn't gonna have me losing sleep.

Did talk to another GM who told me there was a 3 day wait to speak to a SGM. However, GM Krondros said "If your party member ends up breaking the rules and is reported by you, yes they are taken action apon[sic] to uphold the rules as best can be interpreted by the responding GM." Good news.

However, I kinda hooked him on the violation itself. He agreed there was evidence of breaking a promise and intent to deceive, but since there was no trade or an item of mine involved, it would be treating like a broken power-level agreement (which is what is directed in the GM manual), so then I quoted the Member Agreement where it says action would be taken against "Fraudulent acts, such as deliberately breaking a promise" etc. His explanation then was "the Pol Member Agreement is currently enforced by the GM's at their sole discretion. That is dictated by Policy and given to the GM's to follow." Krondros was pretty nice and textbook with empathy for the situation.

So yes, the GM you get definitely has a ton to do with any resolution. I suppose that's pretty common knowledge/sense, but at least the party thing is clarified. It is frustrating on one hand when you have the document you agree to and the manuals they abide by and still not see the objective proper action taken (from what I can tell, the guy should get a "PB 22" or something, which is a minor mark on the account).

[Koga]

Maybe I'll browse the FFXI GM Handbook when I get home and see if I can find that regulation lololol.

[Tricen]

What's the players name?