Trade systems of FFXI.

[Sesshoumaru]

After some time the entire concept behind Ra/Ex has seem to have been circumvented. With such acts as selling off of these items through a mercenary system. The question of the relevance of the ra/ex system came to mind. In this day and age it seems that this system has simply been made to be an annoyance to the "AHer," or people who rather spend gil over time to get an item, rather then any real hurdle to overcome through hard work an diligence of a player. It no longer is hey want that *insert ra/ex item here* you better spend x amount of time in x place doing x to get it. Now it is hey want that *insert ra/ex item here* it is going to cost you about x amount of gils. This is not surprising in the least as money always has found a way around most obstacles, what is surprising is the amount of controversy caused by this inevitable outcome.

Now I know I will probably get some heat for this but I will introduce the concept of Efficient Breech. It is a legal term/act which describes an economic principal/act. Basically A contracts to sell a good with B for $100. B is happy because the average market value of that good is in fact $120. Now late to the party C comes along and offers A $150 for the same good. Well in this situation people might say oh well it sucks to be A because he is out $50. However that is not the case! The courts would allow A to breach his contract with B and sell to C however A would be required to give B $120, or the fair market value.

"Whoa! so you saying courts actually support the breach of contracts!?"
Well in short yes. However it is in limited circumstances and for limited goals. You see in the above theoretical A made $30 b made all that he was expecting to make, $20 from reselling the good, and C the person who was willing to pay the most, thus showed that he valued the item more, received the good. Of course there is the issue of money does not show more value which is something for philosophers to discuss. There is also the critique of couldn't B simply go and sell the goods to C for $150. The courts answer this in that C and B do not have a relation it is only A and C who have the relation thus the most efficient means is for A to be the conveyor of the transaction. Odd? a little bit amoral? yes, however those be the time we live in where in the end things get boiled down to dollars and cents.

However That question of couldn't B sell to C nags at me, I'm not an adamant supporter of efficient breech. Thus in my mind the AH seems to me to be a very good vehicle of transactions, much better then the mercenary system being employed by some today in regard to ra/ex items. Should SE then remove the ex tag from many items which just get sold using a different means other then the AH system? I lean towards yes, in this way we have a more educated buyer( relative of course as some people will always remain clueless). and a much quicker and efficient method for caring out these transactions. Also for those who say how can some one have gil enough to purchase any big items and still not have time to invest on getting those items, this is simple there is a complex economic system in FFXI which allows for people to make large sums of gils with out even being part of a LS or for that matter being high lvl, a lvl 1 character does have potential for making large profit, but this goes to the whole long debate going on about RMT etc which I'm trying not to get into.


On a side note: For the purpose of this discussion RMT will not be a factor, because to introduce it as a factor would bring up the question of RMT effects the entire economy of FFXI, not just the mercanary system but also the AH system, as well as the raw material system or farming system if you prefer( you know where people produce/farm x item for crafting and sell in bulk to crafters). RMT pervades this game to such a degree that even the staunchest of opponents to it have gil in their pocket from people who RMT, unless of course you have no gils but thats a whole other issue.

So please discuss.
1) Thoughts about the mercenary system (free of any topics concerning RMT)

2) Thoughts about the current AH system

3) Thoughts about the ra/ex system (not saying to get rid of it for the minor RMT fodder NMs)
3a) The value of the ra/ex system specifically as it concerns HNM/Gods.

4) Ways for the player base to effect change in concerns to these systems (can SE be counted on here, or for most things?)
4a) The mercenary system specifically.

[Tomiko]

Didn't read it. Might want to consider paragraphs in the future.

I'll respond to the following though:

2) Thoughts about the current AH system
3) Thoughts about the ra/ex system
5) Ways for the player base to effect change in concerns to these systems (can SE be counted on here, or for most things?)

2. It kinda sucks. Based on the short time I played WoW, I liked their system alot more.

3. It's ok. There just needs to be more ways to store ra/ex items since you can't mule them.

5. Contact them with suggestions. That's why they have the comments/suggestions form after all. Sure it may take awhile, but eventually they tend to address things (although generally when it's become a much bigger issue than if they had addressed it the first time).

https://secure.playonline.com/supportus/exmf.html

[Priran]

Nice text wall.

As far as

2) Thoughts about the current AH system

I like it. I can't stand it when MMOs force you to set up shops and afk overnight to sell anything or force you to play some is-this-jackass-ripping-me-off guessing game any time you want to buy something of value.

[Octavious]

Yea, thats the one thing FF didn't into consideration when creating the AH system. The only MMO-style game i've played with any easy way to setup shop was Phantasy Star Universe. After awhile they let you buy your own shop addition to your 'room' in the barracks. It was kind of cool, you could tele around to ppls shops and search them online. Now if SEGA only updated their content... D:

[Shuemue]

Forum rules

This forum is for asking questions or discussing certain aspects of the game. That means that a topic that is generally more of a personal kind can be posted here without fear of being shot down in the advanced section. Let me make this clear, from this point on, if you are caught trolling in this section you will be punished. I have asked the moderators of the forums to keep a very close eye on this section because it's getting out of hand. If you can not read this section of the forums without being nasty, don't even click it. (That means if you are going to respond to a post in this section, that you can not simply say that you didn't read it, stop crying, or start name calling.) We are very lenient in the advanced section regarding this, but not here.

[setzor]

get rid of the Ex tag? are you kidding me? that'd be like undoing the last 2 years... rmts will go back to monopolizing smalltime NM's like leaping lizzy and valkurm emperor, then the whining/crying about "That's not fair, these people are camping 24/7 blah blah blaaah. I don't wanna pay 1m for a emp pin. whine /cry" Essentially repeating history... I skimmed that wall of text but did pick up on a few things. It's not a matter of fucking up the economy, it's a matter of smalltime/lowlevel items going and getting RMT-flated all over again...

RMT had to resort to methods that they don't personally like, they loved being able to sit and kill 2-3 hour repop NM's.

My personal opinion on the RMT matter, at this point, is if the gillers "earned their gil just like everybody else" .. I honestly wouldn't care what they did with it; sell it, eat it, fuck it, who gives a shit. it's just the obviously dirty-handed shit they do to squeeze every extra gil outta people that pisses me off. corrupting AH history with fake buys to drive up item prices, pos-hacking to mine and repeat quests, putting a monopoly on certain crafting items. Granted the STF has made a serious dent, which lead us to where we are now, but they'll always be there, as long as you have rich mama's boys with daddy's credit card...

[Lexa]

Didn't we have this whole "remove the ex" discussion in Newbie a few weeks back?

And as long as Valkurm Emperor and Leaping Lizzy still aren't camped by the same damn people 24/7, seven days a week, I'd say the r/ex system can't be that broken. Even with the possibility of selling shit out of the pool - is there REALLY a market for making gil on for instance Perseus's Harpes?

Sure, there are plenty of flaws in the current systems, both for r/ex items, the AH system - whatever it is - but getting rid of the ex tags is an incredibly stupid idea. Go visit the other thread for some of the reasons people feel why that is.

[Sesshoumaru]

Shouldn't you be busy suing SE?

law school takes a while, which is good for others / bad for lawyers lol.

I did not say to get rid of the ra/ex system.... It is sad that large amounts of text turn people off. As far as the lolNMs go I think the ra/ex system does the job very well. However how many people can go out and solo HNMs? Sure the rdms can and do on some thing but really when it comes to certain things It just isn't viable. I think I will try and edit my original post to make it more friendly to the reader.

[Therin]

Blah blah.

If you see a problem (some don't, some do) with mercenary tactics then you'd better cross your fingers and hope SE decides to just ban everyone who sells items out of loot pools (it is technically against the function of the game, after all). Until they do this, it won't stop, and it's pointless to debate.

If SE doesn't decide to do that, then we can only assume that they don't feel it's enough of an issue or they are just worried about losing too much $$$$. Either way, again, nothing we can do about it.

[BerenTebogo]

Blah blah.

If you see a problem (some don't, some do) with mercenary tactics then you'd better cross your fingers and hope SE decides to just ban everyone who sells items out of loot pools (it is technically against the function of the game, after all). Until they do this, it won't stop, and it's pointless to debate.

If SE doesn't decide to do that, then we can only assume that they don't feel it's enough of an issue or they are just worried about losing too much $$$$. Either way, again, nothing we can do about it.

It isn't against ToS, I'll look through our site but our LS leader had a lengthy discussion with a GM at the time our LS was founded, as one of our primary functions as a LS is to sell abj's from HNM.

[Therin]

Blah blah.

If you see a problem (some don't, some do) with mercenary tactics then you'd better cross your fingers and hope SE decides to just ban everyone who sells items out of loot pools (it is technically against the function of the game, after all). Until they do this, it won't stop, and it's pointless to debate.

If SE doesn't decide to do that, then we can only assume that they don't feel it's enough of an issue or they are just worried about losing too much $$$$. Either way, again, nothing we can do about it.

It isn't against ToS, I'll look through our site but our LS leader had a lengthy discussion with a GM at the time our LS was founded, as one of our primary functions as a LS is to sell abj's from HNM.

It may not say this specifically, no. But they wouldn't have made the function EX if they intended an item to be sold.

[LinktheDeme]

Blah blah.

If you see a problem (some don't, some do) with mercenary tactics then you'd better cross your fingers and hope SE decides to just ban everyone who sells items out of loot pools (it is technically against the function of the game, after all). Until they do this, it won't stop, and it's pointless to debate.

If SE doesn't decide to do that, then we can only assume that they don't feel it's enough of an issue or they are just worried about losing too much $$$$. Either way, again, nothing we can do about it.

It isn't against ToS, I'll look through our site but our LS leader had a lengthy discussion with a GM at the time our LS was founded, as one of our primary functions as a LS is to sell abj's from HNM.

It may not say this specifically, no. But they wouldn't have made the function EX if they intended an item to be sold.

Unless they intended for the item to be sold by the group and not by an individual member after he's gotten it ;3
But SE doesnt think that much so. . .

[Jaybar]

It may not say this specifically, no. But they wouldn't have made the function EX if they intended an item to be sold.

It was placed there so you could not move the item off of your character without selling to an NPC or dropping it. Nothing was ever said about selling it via loot pool because at the time it belongs to nobody.

[Sesshoumaru]

Blah blah.

If you see a problem (some don't, some do) with mercenary tactics then you'd better cross your fingers and hope SE decides to just ban everyone who sells items out of loot pools (it is technically against the function of the game, after all). Until they do this, it won't stop, and it's pointless to debate.

If SE doesn't decide to do that, then we can only assume that they don't feel it's enough of an issue or they are just worried about losing too much $$$$. Either way, again, nothing we can do about it.

wow do people just make a decision based of a single line totally out of context about what they will reply with....

I DO NOT see a problem with it at all, what I think needed to be addressed was the fact that some people charge insane prices and for the most part no consumer, player/ AHer/ w/e you want to call some one, would have a clue as to the price that they should be paying. There is the idea of you pay however much you think is right, but that is silly. Even the AH system offers you a history of what people have payed in the past so that you could get a feel for what you should pay so as not to get totally ripped off. Realistically a lesser, as in not hunting huge stuff like lol AV, endgame LS that cycles through gods to farm kirin would, after a while put very little value on abj. and be more concerned with the money generated from farming gods. Then when you multiply how many LS that can do this and you have yourself a very large supply of pretty much any sky abj. you might want. Now personally I can see Haidate running about inline to what a Haub+1 would cost but when people are paying 25 mil for one that is just dumb.

I mean when you think about it lolosode runs very cheap now adays and it is one of the more work intensive items to get from Gods. Even if you don't do Kirin Zerg style ( kiting can take a long as time) you still need to farm the 4 lesser gods. So for arguments sake a small group of 12 could easily cycle through genbu-kirin 1/2 times a week and from total sales of all note worthy, and even none note worthy, items rake in about 15-30 mil easy. Also take into account that would simply be from selling abjs. for haidate crimson legs etc etc, leaving all the other money items to add even more money to the whole process. So would it be worth is to sell Haidate for 4 mil? yes most likely, however unless people talk about it and share information there will be that uninformed player who shells out 25mil for it. Hell 25mil is almost a frking Kraken club!

Just my two cents. Now if people think the mercenary system is bad/evil I don't really care. I see it as a logical means for getting things done in a more speedy manner, or in a much more brief description it is Efficient!

I'm not to sure about the rules for this in regards to BG but I'd be interested in hearing what people think certain items/abjs are really worth.
You know competition leads to a healthy economy.

[Thorny]

If you were to remove the EX tag simply on the items that people sell consistantly, it would still make a huge difference. I know on my server, for example, not that many people and shells sell abjurations or ra/ex gear.. but I can guarantee if they weren't forced to find a buyer to do so during their scheduled times they would. Who doesn't get a billion d.bodies or n.bodies from kirin once you're capped? While it would eliminate the vagueness of the price, it would also eliminate most of the hassle related to selling those types of items. In my opinion, the hassle is what makes it fair since few buyers would want all 3 kirin abjs and both buyer/seller come up screwed if it doesn't drop. The effort it takes to sell ex drops is because they weren't originally intended to be sold.. I think it should stay how it is. If you really want to buy nashira, homam, or kirin drops.. you have to wait around for all the fights and hope it drops. It's a pain in the ass but it stresses why these items weren't designed for sale. I remember a certain person on remora having Kirin's Osode without sky access because they bought gil rampantly(I'm sure a few others know who I'm thinking of) back in '05 before it was common knowledge how crappy it was. Everyone I knew looked down on her for it, myself included. Take away the EX tags and you'll have random noobs in similar situations with gear that actually matters because they can RMT. Additionally, when a player quits the game their good previously EX items will stay in circulation and eventually the market will become flooded even with things like Byakko's Haidate and homam..

[Sesshoumaru]

RMT can not be an argument for this situation as dusk+1 speed belt etc etc can all be bought in the same fashion by a regular person as some one who RMT's. Like I said in the original post like it or not you probably have a few gils in your pocket from some one who RMT'd.

Back on topic: Flooding of the market will not occur as easily as you make it out to seem.
1) these are not push over NMs.
2) these are not 100% drops.
3) Not every LS who camps is in the business of being mercenaries, at least not yet.
4) Once the market is Flooded in the far distant future, it won't necessarily be a bad thing.
4a) The average player will have awesome gear and not be able to hide behind gimpness as an excuse for lack of skills.
4b) People won't be so hard on new equipment possibilities, If every one is walking around with Adaberks and haidate new gear might be welcomed.
4c) The greater you can perform in a situation the more likely you are to try, thus if the average party can rake in 25k+ an hour with little effort more people will have maxed merits.

Lastly I'm not arguing for removal of the ra/ex tag even which for some reason every one thinks is the case... read the op.
I'm calling for a census of prices. I think those who participate in the Mercenary system should be willing to come fourth with their price schemes for the various items they can get you. Also the regular BG player might be motivated to call BS on a price of 25 Mil for x item. Thus in this way we keep people informed as to the average value of each given drop, rather then some one going off and blowing all the gil they have on B haidate or some other relatively simple item to get.

[Thorny]

3) Thoughts about the ra/ex system (not saying to get rid of it for the minor RMT fodder NMs)
3a) The value of the ra/ex system specifically as it concerns HNM/Gods.

-OP, the part I cared enough to write a response to

Lastly I'm not arguing for removal of the ra/ex tag even which for some reason every one thinks is the case... read the op.
I'm calling for a census of prices. I think those who participate in the Mercenary system should be willing to come fourth with their price schemes for the various items they can get you. Also the regular BG player might be motivated to call BS on a price of 25 Mil for x item. Thus in this way we keep people informed as to the average value of each given drop, rather then some one going off and blowing all the gil they have on B haidate or some other relatively simple item to get.

If someone can make 25 mil without buying gil, stealing a bank, or in some other way cheating the system, they know better than spending that 25 mil on haidate. Enough said.

[Sesshoumaru]

Ok so they might know not to spend 25 mil but how about 4 or 5? 6 or 7? The object is not to inform the noob idiot who pays 25mil but to help out the guy who worked his ass off to make 4.5 mil and let him know hey this is worth 3.8mil so save your self some spending cash. Now you might be saying so what it is only 700k but that is enough money to keep some one in the black for a while once they get the big ticket stuff out of the way. Day to day cost in FFXI are not exactly 0 you know.

[fndragon]

Ok so they might know not to spend 25 mil but how about 4 or 5? 6 or 7? The object is not to inform the noob idiot who pays 25mil but to help out the guy who worked his ass off to make 4.5 mil and let him know hey this is worth 3.8mil so save your self some spending cash. Now you might be saying so what it is only 700k but that is enough money to keep some one in the black for a while once they get the big ticket stuff out of the way. Day to day cost in FFXI are not exactly 0 you know.

Oddly enough, Sesshoumaru is 100% correct. The EX tag removes the ability of the "purchaser" of said loot pool item from knowing the fair market value without doing extensive research. For instance, if one linkshell charges 2million for B.Haidate and another linkshell charges 4 million, prospective customers have to hunt down pricelists themselves in order to make an informed decision, instead of having a single place (like the AH). This is also not taking into account travel time and drop percentages.

On the other hand, Kraken Clubs and Herald's Gaiters are tradable, however AH history on both items is spotty at best due to the low drop rate, high demand, and relative low trading velocity of those objects. So removing an EX tag doesn't necessarily correspond to higher market visibility and coherency.

[Sesshoumaru]

Oddly enough, Sesshoumaru is 100% correct. The EX tag removes the ability of the "purchaser" of said loot pool item from knowing the fair market value without doing extensive research. For instance, if one linkshell charges 2million for B.Haidate and another linkshell charges 4 million, prospective customers have to hunt down pricelists themselves in order to make an informed decision, instead of having a single place (like the AH). This is also not taking into account travel time and drop percentages.

On the other hand, Kraken Clubs and Herald's Gaiters are tradable, however AH history on both items is spotty at best due to the low drop rate, high demand, and relative low trading velocity of those objects. So removing an EX tag doesn't necessarily correspond to higher market visibility and coherency.

Some items simply don't get sold on AH for obvious reasons. However there is no resource like FFXIAH when it comes to the buying/selling of abj. I for one would be happy to see abj. items as common as Haubergeons.

Question to the Mods:

Is a Item Sale/Trade thread something that you guys would even allow?
or
Simply a price list for specific approved Shells?