Jailer of Love help!

[Ardrial]

LS tried our first Jailer of Love last night. We ended up killing it after 3 hours but we had some problems that I was wondering about.

First, we were doing the normal strategy. PLD/RDM spamming spells to hold hate. We had him just on it till regen broke (3 sets of each summon). That took about 10-20 minutes...I didn't really count.

After regen broke we had melees go in on the other side of the pld. Within minutes the melees had hate, JoL did a few TP moves and killed our tanks. (Draw in, charm, etc)

We got our main tank back up and had the melees back off for a while. During this time the tank began restoring his hate. About 10 minutes later we sent one drg in. Withing one swing the DRG took hate and JoL starting doing TP moves and caused massive wipes.

From then we had our brd disband and sac JoL + summons till everyone was back to full and buffed then we rearranged our parties. We had every melee change to blm that had it and had tank party + 2 parties of blms.

The single tank built hate a while then blms starting nuking. Nobody took hate at all. He held hate off 10ish BLMs for 80% of JoLs life. We then decided to bring a THF in and have him hit JoL for TH.

We brought him into the blm alliance @ 20% JoL and had him hit JoL once (This thf showed up when JoL was at 50% and had no prior hate on JoL). AS SOON as the THF swung once on JoL, the BLMs instantly took hate and started TP move spamming.

We had blms tank out of melee range while our PLD got back up and finshed it off easily after he got hate back.

So I am wondering, what the fuck is up with the crazy hate issue with melees? I'm pretty sure it's not a shitty tank....seeing as he held hate off 10 nuking blms for 80% and he's a damn good pld for everything else.

[Belkin]

Range undoubtedly does something nutty to enmity generation/degeneration. Because the BLM's were out of range, they were able to not generate as much enmity.

Pro Tip: x4 RNG and x2 BRD :D

[Vyerz]

I myself have never done JoF, but when I watched Demo kill it a few months back they litterally had like 8 melee's on it who never even got hit

[Ardrial]

I myself have never done JoF, but when I watched Demo kill it a few months back they litterally had like 8 melee's on it who never even got hit

It's JoL.

And Yes that's the plan. The tank is supposed to get hate with everything but the melees were pulling hate when they shouldn't. They would literally pull hate off a pld/rdm who was spamming spells for 80% of JOL's life with one swing.

[Vyerz]

I totally meant to say JoL <.< Guess thats what no sleep gets you
I'm gonna pass out and dream of a novio and popping AV

[Vyerz]

Oh and was Bind in the spell order for the PLD/rdm?
Not that I think it would make any sense, but just throwing it out there

[Ardrial]

Oh and was Bind in the spell order for the PLD/rdm?
Not that I think it would make any sense, but just throwing it out there

probably?

[Spekkio]

maybe this is a possible application of kaeko's enmity testing? if the player died to AoE and wasn't the target of love, he may not have had his hate reset (see enmity testing thread for experimental evidence of this effect.) other than that, idk. love never seemed to have any odd hate effects when i've fought him.

[Ardrial]

maybe this is a possible application of kaeko's enmity testing? if the player died to AoE and wasn't the target of love, he may not have had his hate reset (see enmity testing thread for experimental evidence of this effect.) other than that, idk. love never seemed to have any odd hate effects when i've fought him.

We brought him into the blm alliance @ 20% JoL and had him hit JoL once (This thf showed up when JoL was at 50% and had no prior hate on JoL). AS SOON as the THF swung once on JoL, the BLMs instantly took hate and started TP move spamming.

[orson]

That's freaking weird.

How much was your Pld/Rdm taking from nukes? The only thing I can think off is his hate wasn't as good as you think it was and/or positioning wasn't quite correct. As for the Thf causing it to go ape shit I'd say coincidence and the Blms just happened to pull hate at the same time.

[shirak]

I'd add a second tank, either pld/rdm or rdm/nin.

We run the 8x melee for JoL and 4x+ blm for sharks and every once in awhile a drk or sam will pull hate and die and hurt the other melee with jol aoe. Tell your melees to regulate their damage to be dot and not spike damage. Pulling hate is the worst thing for a melee to do at JoL.

One JoL we had our 2nd tank d/c, and 2 melee parties were too much for one tank to handle. So we alternated one melee pt in, one melee party out to cool down their hate.

Another pro-tip:
More drgs as melee on JoL the better considering hate-shed jumps and top-tier DoT.

[Dioma]

That's freaking weird.

How much was your Pld/Rdm taking from nukes? The only thing I can think off is his hate wasn't as good as you think it was and/or positioning wasn't quite correct. As for the Thf causing it to go ape shit I'd say coincidence and the Blms just happened to pull hate at the same time.

I'm thinking it's positioning too. PLDs most likely too close and when you put the melee on it and you got lucky that it was only boosting with the BLM damage. That, or your PLD sucks but since you say he doesn't, we'll go with being a hair too close.

[Midge]

What spells was your PLD using for hate?

Some RDM spells like Blind and Poison carry lots of VE but not much CE, so if he had been spamming those and not spells with lots of CE like Sleep and Dispel. Like you said; if he's a good PLD he should know that anyway.

Cant explain why BLMs would take less hate; unless they weren't paying attention and healing JoL instead

[fishstix]

Were the melees the actual hate target of JOL, like if you used /assist, it would point to the melee? We recently did a JOL this weekend also and had some trouble with something similar, the moment a melee would start, JOL would instantly use TP moves. How far apart were your tanks from each other, and how far away from JOL?

Taken from http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/viewt...952097#p952097
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/Ellatrix/JoL.png
I believe our problem was that our tanks were too close together. Once we got positioning just right, JOL no longer used any TP moves other than Boost.

[Mojo]

If you have a good tank, BLM shouldn't ever pull hate on JoL unless you have some crazy refresh going on. PLD/RDM(or any other good JoL tank), if played correctly, will maintain capped CE and near capped VE. A BLM can cap CE but considering how much damage nukes do to JoL and how often it resists, it is unlikely that they will ever reach the VE cap. They shed most of the VE they've accumulated while resting. A good melee, on the other hand, will always end up pulling hate regardless of how good your tank is. A well geared SAM/THF with a BRD can pull off a 1k~ Gekkos every minute in addition to all of the other damage they're doing. They will eventually reach the CE and VE cap, and pull hate from the tank. Typically you end up with a dead melee or more if it does Concussive Oscillation when they pull hate, although if you're lucky it will do charm and reset all of their hate. Sentinel + Phalanx II will reduce all of their hits to 0 so it shouldn't be a problem at all. Either way, melee pulling hate and dieing or getting charmed is normal on JoL and I don't think it can be avoided unless your melee are wimpy or something.

As far as what you described goes, it sounds like your tank is doing it wrong and somehow isn't maintaining enough VE. When you first engage JoL, Dispel > Blind > Sleep > Blind, Flash whenever it's up and Cure IV when you eat a tier IV or Gai III is what your tank should be doing for hate. You'll reach the CE and VE caps very quickly this way. Once you're there, switch over to Dispel > Blind > Bind > Blind with Flash and Cure IV to best maintain the CE and VE hate caps. I wouldn't waste time casting Stoneskin, it's not worth the investment. If you have a good physical damage reduction gear macro'd for summoning as well as a decent amount of HP, you don't need it to survive Astral Flow. The VE lost during casting time doesn't justify the CE you retain when taking damage, especially when you've reached both caps and the focus is to keep your VE as high as possible. As far as positioning goes, 13.1~13.4 seems to be the best distance to stand to avoid getting hit with other TP moves.

[Drex]

Maybe the thf accompliced/collaborated a couple BLMs before he started meleeing?

It sounds like too much of a coincidence to be the tanks standing too close, but that's worth double-checking too. Especially if he was drawing tanks in - that would make them too far away (unless concussive oscillation did that, in which case they were too close). It sounds like an issue of tank positioning to me.

[Ardrial]

I'd add a second tank, either pld/rdm or rdm/nin.

We run the 8x melee for JoL and 4x+ blm for sharks and every once in awhile a drk or sam will pull hate and die and hurt the other melee with jol aoe. Tell your melees to regulate their damage to be dot and not spike damage. Pulling hate is the worst thing for a melee to do at JoL.

One JoL we had our 2nd tank d/c, and 2 melee parties were too much for one tank to handle. So we alternated one melee pt in, one melee party out to cool down their hate.

Another pro-tip:
More drgs as melee on JoL the better considering hate-shed jumps and top-tier DoT.

It wasn't melee's over damaging because a single thf came into the fight with no prior hate on JoL and hit for 0 damage and caused hate to go insane.

What spells was your PLD using for hate?

Some RDM spells like Blind and Poison carry lots of VE but not much CE, so if he had been spamming those and not spells with lots of CE like Sleep and Dispel. Like you said; if he's a good PLD he should know that anyway.

Cant explain why BLMs would take less hate; unless they weren't paying attention and healing JoL instead

Sleep + Dispel i saw go off a lot. He dispelled boost like every time lol

If you have a good tank, BLM shouldn't ever pull hate on JoL unless you have some crazy refresh going on. PLD/RDM(or any other good JoL tank), if played correctly, will maintain capped CE and near capped VE. A BLM can cap CE but considering how much damage nukes do to JoL and how often it resists, it is unlikely that they will ever reach the VE cap. They shed most of the VE they've accumulated while resting. A good melee, on the other hand, will always end up pulling hate regardless of how good your tank is. A well geared SAM/THF with a BRD can pull off a 1k~ Gekkos every minute in addition to all of the other damage they're doing. They will eventually reach the CE and VE cap, and pull hate from the tank. Typically you end up with a dead melee or more if it does Concussive Oscillation when they pull hate, although if you're lucky it will do charm and reset all of their hate. Sentinel + Phalanx II will reduce all of their hits to 0 so it shouldn't be a problem at all. Either way, melee pulling hate and dieing or getting charmed is normal on JoL and I don't think it can be avoided unless your melee are wimpy or something.

As far as what you described goes, it sounds like your tank is doing it wrong and somehow isn't maintaining enough VE. When you first engage JoL, Dispel > Blind > Sleep > Blind, Flash whenever it's up and Cure IV when you eat a tier IV or Gai III is what your tank should be doing for hate. You'll reach the CE and VE caps very quickly this way. Once you're there, switch over to Dispel > Blind > Bind > Blind with Flash and Cure IV to best maintain the CE and VE hate caps. I wouldn't waste time casting Stoneskin, it's not worth the investment. If you have a good physical damage reduction gear macro'd for summoning as well as a decent amount of HP, you don't need it to survive Astral Flow. The VE lost during casting time doesn't justify the CE you retain when taking damage, especially when you've reached both caps and the focus is to keep your VE as high as possible. As far as positioning goes, 13.1~13.4 seems to be the best distance to stand to avoid getting hit with other TP moves.

He has this huge ass chart on our forums on how to most effectively cap CE + VE at all times so he knows how to do it.

Maybe the thf accompliced/collaborated a couple BLMs before he started meleeing?

It sounds like too much of a coincidence to be the tanks standing too close, but that's worth double-checking too. Especially if he was drawing tanks in - that would make them too far away (unless concussive oscillation did that, in which case they were too close). It sounds like an issue of tank positioning to me.

The THF was in the alliance in the tank party not in the blm party (blm parties were full except for our rotating bard) so no accomplice on the BLMs.



So what I am getting from everyone is most likely a positioning issue?

[Robert]

Sounds to me like he was losing more enmity than he thought getting hit by IV/-ga3 spells, or he was in range of AOE TP moves, does he have a -25% or close MDT set or an Aegis?

[Ardrial]

Sounds to me like he was losing more enmity than he thought getting hit by IV/-ga3 spells, or he was in range of AOE TP moves, does he have a -25% or close MDT set or an Aegis?

No Aegis but he has a huge bonus to MD...I'll see how much he has later...he's not on now.

He however wasn't getting hit by any TP moves at all. Boost went off a lot though lol

[shirak]

It wasn't melee's over damaging because a single thf came into the fight with no prior hate on JoL and hit for 0 damage and caused hate to go insane.

This just doesn't make sense unless the thief used accomplice before, the whole story isnt there and we cant see the logs so I'm just going to choose to believe that a thief entering a fight for the first time won't take hate from plds with 1 swing. Could be wrong, but that would be good as maybe we'd learn something new.

I think your problem is you need a co-tank, how come you only use 1 tank...