Transgender Philosophy (Questions, Ideology)

[BaneTheBrawler]

Philosophical discussions about Transgender issues go here. This is also where those of you who may not understand aspects about Transgender people should ask questions. However, should you have such a question, you should phrase it respectfully. No one is obligated to answer you.

Emphasis for this thread should be placed on educating and civil discourse. Arguments are fine, of course, but I will infract any sign of trolling, bigotry, and personal attacks.

Just to make a few things clear, to start with:

"Tranny" is a slur. If you use it, I will smite you.
"Shitlord" is a slur. If you use it, I will smite you. There can be only one.
"Check your privilege" is stupid and does not contribute. Explain why someone's privilege is applicable. If you don't, I will smite you.
"Cis scum" is, obviously, a slur. If you use it, I will smite you.

A few terms that are important to know:
"Cis" is short for "Cisgender" (adjective) means your gender matches the sex you were born as.
"Trans" is short for "Transgender" (adjective) which means someone identifies as something other than the sex they were born as. Usually just a simple flip from one to the other, this can also get waaaay more complicated and I don't fully understand all of it so you'll have to ask.
"Het" is short for "Heterosexual," (adjective or noun) which means you are sexually attracted to the opposite sex.
I'm actually not sure what the abbreviation for "Homosexual" (adjective or noun) is. Doesn't get used as much. "Gay," I guess? Anyway, means you are sexually attracted to the same sex.

My understanding of this subject is somewhat shaky, so if I have made an error please PM me.

As always, keep it civil.

[BaneTheBrawler]

I'll kick this off with a question:

I saw Kuya mention a birth-certificate sex change bill. I understand why someone would want to change this to reflect their actual identity, but would there be any repercussions as far as medical treatment? Like, could you accidentally get dosages for the wrong genetic sex, or what? Would it even matter if you did? I know genetic sex makes a difference on some things, I just don't know how many or how much of a difference.

[hey]

cis is short for cisgender, not cisnormative. And your description is...something.

I'll kick this off with a question:

I saw Kuya mention a birth-certificate sex change bill. I understand why someone would want to change this to reflect their actual identity, but would there be any repercussions as far as medical treatment? Like, could you accidentally get dosages for the wrong genetic sex, or what? Would it even matter if you did? I know genetic sex makes a difference on some things, I just don't know how many or how much of a difference.

Doctors aren't going to care what your birth certificate says. At best they may check your ID if you're unconscious, which may or may not match what your birth certificate says anyway. Most of the time it does not matter. For when it does, it's usually wise to mention that you are trans to your doctor. Although, i have no idea how well differences in sex for medical treatment reasons have been studied in relation to transsexual people taking hormones anyway. Most doctors would not know wtf to do for trans patients if sex has an impact on how to treat them.

[BaneTheBrawler]

Fixed. I realize that's not the most diplomatic way to explain it, but brevity is a concern as well, for a post like that. The idea is to explain the term as efficiently as possible to people who have no understanding at all of the issues at hand, I believe that accomplished that without crossing into the territory of being offensive. If you'd like to expand on why the term "normal" is offensive, that's part of what the thread is for.

I should also make clear that this thread is going to require a certain amount of thick skin. The ideas of gender and sexuality that this thread aims to discuss are not well understood by a significant portion of our users. As much as I read this section, I still barely understand much of it. We are going to make mistakes.

[hey]

Of course, i understand mistakes will be made. That is okay, as long as you try to learn from them.

And yes, i do think the way you explained it is offensive. It would be much simpler to just say it means your gender matches your sex. It is offensive for the exact reason you stated in your description: it suggests trans people are abnormal.

[BaneTheBrawler]

Fair enough.

[Mazmaz]

On the topic of terminology you brought up, this is a pretty good article:
http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/01/...ot-oppressive/

By using “cis woman” with “trans woman” as opposed to “trans woman” and just plain “woman,” we’re spreading the message that said trans woman isn’t abnormal. There is no Other and no One True Woman. Instead, said trans woman is just as much a woman as any cis woman.

Whoa. Back up.

Aren’t some of the life experiences of a cis woman different from that of a trans woman?

Of course they are. But so are the life experiences of, say, a cis woman who is a survivor of sexual violence as opposed to a cis woman who isn’t. Or one who grew up in utter poverty instead of getting a pony on her sweet sixteen. Some of us were dealt a rougher hand in places, you know?

Cis women as a whole may have it tough in some arenas, while trans women may have it tough in other arenas. Sometimes those arenas overlap. Recognize it, respect it, and move along.


...


By incorporating the C-word into everyday vocabulary, cis people are encouraged to reflect on their—well—cis-ness.

You don’t need to write an undergrad thesis on it. You don’t even need to feel particularly bad or guilty about it. Just pause for a moment to recognize that it exists.

Recognize that your nature successfully paired up with your culture. Lucky, lucky you.

[notorious bum]

I'd like to contribute an interesting documentary short, especially for those who've only recently begun to learn about transgendered people.

[Kuya]

I'll kick this off with a question:

I saw Kuya mention a birth-certificate sex change bill. I understand why someone would want to change this to reflect their actual identity, but would there be any repercussions as far as medical treatment? Like, could you accidentally get dosages for the wrong genetic sex, or what? Would it even matter if you did? I know genetic sex makes a difference on some things, I just don't know how many or how much of a difference.

In some states, and including Puerto Rico (were this bill approved), there would be an indication in the birth certificate that there had been a change. From there, the doctor would have to inquire what changed precisely.

edit: actually, now i''m not so sure if the birth certificate would specify that the sex changed. i haven't checked the bill recently

[Vandalhart]

Finally, I have the opporitunity to ask some follow-up questions. I'll take sometime today while I'm sitting out the storm going through the area to get some worded.

[Aksannyi]

I am pleased to see that we are giving this a go again. Transgender people are one of the most marginalized people right now and having an outlet for this kind of education is really important.

[Vandalhart]

I'm going to try and explain my current interpretation of transgender and see if I'm anywhere near what it actually is.

My understanding so far is that gender is a societal creation. That being said, it has nothing to do with sexuality, it's basically whether or not a person enjoys things that society has labeled as masculine of feminine. Let me know if that is at all correct.

Now, because it has nothing to do with sexuality, in my mind, it means a person can be a heterosexual individual and have a pairing with a heterosexual mate and still be transgender. If that is correct then anyone can be transgender and that makes me curious why being transgender is "such a big deal" to other people.

It seems to me that transgender is getting confused with transsexual. Which, I can see someone who is transexual would know because they are transgender to begin with. Though, if they are transsexual they would not be transgender, because they weren't the gender they were born to be. That just broke my brain a little

Anyways, apologies if anything I said came out wrong, there is no intent to offend behind any of these statements, but let me know and I can try to reword it.

[Aksannyi]

My understanding so far is that gender is a societal creation. That being said, it has nothing to do with sexuality, it's basically whether or not a person enjoys things that society has labeled as masculine of feminine. Let me know if that is at all correct.

Bolded is not correct. As a sports fan, something typically regarded as a male activity, that doesn't affect my concept of my individual gender. I am a female. I know inherently that I am a female. While gender is indeed a social construct - and the imposed gender roles are absolutely socially constructed - actual gender is much more fluid than that. You are correct in that it is also not about sexuality. In fact, you were on the right track until the next part of the sentence - the enjoying male or female things part. That has no bearing on gender. Gender is an innate part of who we are, not dictated by what we do or prefer. Hence why gender and sexuality are different. But no, just because I enjoy sports, hunting, and fishing, drive a pick up truck, often dress less girly (though sometimes very girly, my prerogative), that does not make me transgender. It just makes me a woman who enjoys sports, hunting, and fishing, who drives a truck and often dresses less girly.

Now, because it has nothing to do with sexuality, in my mind, it means a person can be a heterosexual individual and have a pairing with a heterosexual mate and still be transgender. If that is correct then anyone can be transgender and that makes me curious why being transgender is "such a big deal" to other people.

It seems to me that transgender is getting confused with transsexual. Which, I can see someone who is transexual would know because they are transgender to begin with. Though, if they are transsexual they would not be transgender, because they weren't the gender they were born to be. That just broke my brain a little

Anyways, apologies if anything I said came out wrong, there is no intent to offend behind any of these statements, but let me know and I can try to reword it.

The only real difference between transgender and transsexual is transition, though I'm not sure at which point that shifts - I think it's after surgery. Hey might be able to answer that one better.

Yes, a transgender woman (male genitalia) may be heterosexual and love a cisgender man. They are not homosexuals simply because they both have male genitalia. A transgender woman (male gentalia) may be homosexual and love a cisgender woman. They are not heterosexuals because they have different genitals. People struggle with this the most, as many in other threads have said, and there's a lot of phobia about "but she has a dick, bra." If you are a man and you are with a woman - regardless of genitalia - then you are heterosexual. I understand to some small extent why men are afraid of this, though it is a homophobic reaction. That's a hard hurdle to jump over, particularly if you've been told your whole life "if balls touch it's gay" or "dick in the ass is gay." There are straight cismen who date straight ciswomen who enjoy anal play. They're not gay. The same way that if a cisman is with a transwoman who has not had gender reassignment surgery yet - if they do decide to play that way, it doesn't make the man gay. He is with a woman, the woman just happens to also have a penis. That doesn't make her less of a woman.

I hope this helped somewhat.

Note, when I use terms like male genitalia, I am talking strictly in the clinical sense - that a penis is considered male genitalia and that a vagina is considered female. However, if a penis is on a transgender woman, than it is female genitalia because it belongs to a female. Thought I should make that distinction.

[Vandalhart]

Okay, I'll read that through a few times and process it a bit. Thanks for the edit, the first time through I was confused a bit, but the update helped.

[Mazmaz]

Note, when I use terms like male genitalia, I am talking strictly in the clinical sense - that a penis is considered male genitalia and that a vagina is considered female. However, if a penis is on a transgender woman, than it is female genitalia because it belongs to a female. Thought I should make that distinction.

This was swell! I hadn't thought about this aspect of it, mainly due to trying to avoid discussions of genitalia when it comes to trans issues.

[Aksannyi]

Okay, I'll read that through a few times and process it a bit. Thanks for the edit, the first time through I was confused a bit, but the update helped.

Yeah, I read back through it (glad I did) and I was like ... wait no, that's wrong, shit. I know conceptually it's hard to swallow.

This was swell! I hadn't thought about this aspect of it, mainly due to trying to avoid discussions of genitalia when it comes to trans issues.

I think honestly genitalia is where people get the most hangups about it, especially when it comes to sexuality. People don't like to talk about it for some reason.

[Moss]

If you are a man and you are with a woman - regardless of genitalia - then you are heterosexual. I understand to some small extent why men are afraid of this, though it is a homophobic reaction.

Correct me if I'm wrong: you're saying it is homophobic for a man to be "afraid" of a woman with a dick? Because she is still a woman?

That's a hard hurdle to jump over, particularly if you've been told your whole life "if balls touch it's gay" or "dick in the ass is gay."

That isn't why it would be hard, lol. Part of looking at a person, and my brain saying "woman" is what parts are on them. If a woman undresses and has a dick, I'm not going to recoil because I'm homophobic or I'm thinking "hmm well society has always told if balls touch it's gay..." - it's going to be because I am surprised and no longer attracted to them sexually, because I no longer see them as the sex I am attracted to.

[Cream Soda]

If you're not interested in anal and vaginal sex is important to you, then I don't see how it's homophobic to not someone who is unable to fulfill your desires.

[Salodin]

It's not homophobic, don't feel bad. When most people say they're attracted to a woman what they're really saying is they're attracted to features we consider feminine, including the assumed vagina. When they disrobe and actually have a penis it doesn't mean you're homophobic for wanting to gtfo, it means you're attracted to women who have the usual plumbing and you just didn't make yourself clear enough when you asked this woman to come inside.

I've started to notice a lot of people on these forums have the exact same ideology, but the labels we take for granted mean different things to different people. It's no surprise honestly.

[Aksannyi]

If you're not interested in anal and vaginal sex is important to you, then I don't see how it's homophobic to not someone who is unable to fulfill your desires.

That's a lot different than thinking, per Moss, that it's not "the sex you're attracted to." You're attracted to women, and it's a woman. I understand if having different genitals than what you expected is a deal breaker, but it's ignorant to say "that's not a woman" or whatever you're thinking.