Non-Human Personhood

[BaneTheBrawler]

This seems interesting.

Orangutan granted human-like rights by Argentine court

“Considering that they are very close to human primates, it is an absurdity that they are still in captivity in prison,” primatologist Aldo Giúdice of the University of Buenos Aires told Scientific American. “Seeing them in zoos today recalls human exhibits from other regions of the world in the World’s Fairs in Paris in the 19th century.”
Read more at http://www.redorbit.com/news/science...34mUKG7EqcF.99

As always, keep it civil.

[thetruepandagod]

Next thing you know they'll get 3/5ths of a vote.

[Waraji]

As always, keep it civil.

By far the most appropriate response, and to the article. Wtf Argentina.

[Salodin]

Wtf Argentina, they're similar but not human. Next they're gonna say their pet dogs actually love them.

[Cantih]

Sorry to take a sci-fi bent, but it is a way of looking at the topic.

The way we treat non-human living things is in some degree a matter of the difference in cognitive capabilities between us and them.
So, if we treat them poorly, what leg have we to stand on if we encounter something that has cognition so far ahead of us, we are as separated from them as animals are from us?

There's also the matter of uplifting and their access to historical records, but that is it's own topic for another time.

[Psion]

My personal opinion is that it depends on the creatures mental abilities are. if it's something like bacteria, then it's fine to exterminate a species if it only does harm, and no good to life on the planet in general. (not just humans, but all life.) If it's something like bugs, extinction is forbidden except locally, such as invasive pests with no natural predators. once you get to low level animals then it's fine to hunt them, but no extinction and no needless cruelty. (something like lab tests on mice are unpleasant, but acceptable, provided there's no better alternative.) once you start getting to pets level and the like, no cruelty to them, and no killing without a good reason, such as for food.

once you start getting to fairly smart animals, like those commonly seen in zoos like the great felines and primates, you'd better be providing a humane habitat for them that mimics their natural habitat closely, because being caged and bored your whole life when you have at least some intelligence is pretty cruel. And killing is forbidden unless it's specifically for your own survival; A.K.A. it's about to kill you. Hunting them for vanity things like pelts, or for food or organs when you have other options available is just wrong, especially since many of those creatures are larger and take longer to breed. Many of them are endangered as well.

And of course, there's humans, which i think we can all agree all the above apply, plus human rights, etc.

I do worry about how humanity is going to deal with future rights issues though. Eventually we're going to wind up with A.I. with human intelligence, so why aren't we taking steps to secure their rights before we wind up with another...intelligence rights movement? what about when genetic manipulation is commonplace and the furries start actually making themselves look like humanoid animals? (not that i have an issue with this, but you know the religious right is going to go absolutely apeshit over it, Xenosaga species preservation act style.) What about if we encounter intelligent aliens? Obviously we can't deal with all these issues completely ahead of time, but we can at least lay the groundwork for the inevitable. Just because an alien would have humanlike intelligence, or higher, doesn't mean it would have the same values as humans do.

It's definitely an interesting topic, though.

[Koul]

I take pride in knowing that by the time furries can be their humanoid animals I'll be dead. Quick shout out to mah brah Death. Thanks, dewd. Without you I'd haveta suffer through humanities ridiculousness.

and if aliens of higher intelligence came to our planet and saw how humans were, they'd probably be like "fuck this" and either enslave us, kill us or put us on the do not fly zone.

[kuronosan]

Define human.

[Karbuncle]

Define human.

a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance.

Or are you going for some "What is a man" semantics here

[wipers]

Or are you going for some "What is a man" semantics here

Like all internet arguments semantics is key.

[hey]

Or are you going for some "What is a man" semantics here

What about adults who are are some other gender???

[Koul]

What about adults who are are some other gender???

They can tell us what mystifying new gender they are and then be included in the never ending list of genders that define what a human is. Sound good? Good. Hopefully this will save us 5+ pages of blather between people

also, just in case. "What is a man" is a reference to a Castlevania video game

[kuronosan]

Or are you going for some "What is a man" semantics here

Well let's talk philosophically. If a child is born that cannot walk, is mute, and has retarded mental faculties and response times, is it human by that definition?

[hey]

They can tell us what mystifying new gender they are and then be included in the never ending list of genders that define what a human is. Sound good? Good. Hopefully this will save us 5+ pages of blather between people

No, it doesn't sound good. Why are you putting gender/age requirements on being human?

[BerenTebogo]

Oh jesus, don't do this. Please. Just don't.

[Cantih]

No, it doesn't sound good. Why are you putting gender/age requirements on being human?

Because you pushed the topic in that direction, ffs. (Because Kuronosan just had to throw in a low effort pedant comment to open the opportunity.)

[Xno Kappa]

No, it doesn't sound good. Why are you putting gender/age requirements on being human?

Go to the other fucking thread please. This one actually started out interesting.

[Salodin]

Hey is being sarcastic. I know it's the internet and words but damn you guys are getting baited so easily.

[Xno Kappa]

Hey is being sarcastic. I know it's the internet and words but damn you guys are getting baited so easily.

So you're telling me he's purposely attempting to troll the thread into something completely irrelevant?

Hmmm. Here I thought there was some sort of discussion against these kind of posts.

[Karbuncle]

Well let's talk philosophically. If a child is born that cannot walk, is mute, and has retarded mental faculties and response times, is it human by that definition?

I don't believe I can approach this on a philosophical term... as I am not such a philosophical person. While I believe philosophy has its own value, I think in this instance there are clearly defined lines between humans and animals already due to science.

I mean, A Lion or Dolphin can be born with defunct physical and/or mental capabilities, it doesn't make them a House cat or a Goldfish, they are the species they are despite any mental and physical deficiencies. Though perhaps defining a human is more than giving it a rigid set of yes/no guidelines. Humans are a species, like any other. We have defining traits and characteristics as a species, and while there are genetic anomolies every so often, it does not remove them from being a Human being. I think in another way I should mean, we all have a higher mental capacity than other animals, some just won't fulfill that due to retardation you mentioned or other reasons. The capacity is there, only hindered. With Animals, the capacity is not there.

I won't pretend theres a perfect definition for humanity, but you'd have to be a fool not to see the distinct difference between humans and animals. This, again, does not mean i believe they are in fact lesser beings there for our benefit or that its impossible they feel, have emotions, and so on. We may have understandable verbal communications, but i mean, animals can also communicate in many ways, even if its just a handful of sounds at certain pitches. But we must look at this from a broader perspective. As i mentioned above, humans simply have higher intellectual capabilities, rather we realize them or not is another story.

I'm having odd "The Measure of a Man" flashbacks here, about defining sentience... the soul... etc.