With SoA, What Direction Should FFXI Take?

[Gwynplaine]

Since this forum won't have much going on until new info is released I thought I'd see what people thought about where FFXI should go from here. In terms of gameplay and trends, where do you want the new expansion to take the game in the next year?

In the past the new systems and ideas of the developers have shaped how the new gameplay unfolds:

In ToA the weaker enemies with new characteristics made very fast exp and merit parties much easier to handle.

WoG's allied points and its lackluster rewards didn't lure most players to its areas. But it did fill in some of those frustrating niche exping levels, and Campaign made getting some exp casual without any party.

And of course Abyssea completely up-ended the idea of 6 player exp parties (arguably for better or worse). It included many uses for its cruor points and introduced the stagger system (arguably for better or worse) that made certain jobs more in demand.

So now how should FFXI evolve to meet what players want? (I don't mean to focus specifically on just exping, that's just a prevalent example throughout past expansions.)

[Celebrindor]

I want the return of a "locked off" area that you can access after beating the expansion ala Zilart and CoP. This gave the storyline (along with legitimate battles that required more than just bodies) a huge reward for completion. In a sense all sky gear was the reward for beating Zilart, all Sea gear the reward for CoP. I addition to the unique mobs/fights in these zones. I definitely want to see this concept return.

The new "crafts" they mention (sound more like labor than craftsmanship, such as farming it may be?) could be completely ignored outside of a small dedicated few- at best fishing of a few years ago, at worst chocobo raising. I don't really see it taking off, as I can picture the rewards being something along the line of a Conquest style system in terms of controlling the areas. And that sounds a whole lot like campaign ops getting unlocked, which so rarely happens any more, no matter the desire for roundel earrings and a few others.

Lastly, give me some mind puzzles in the story. Be it in unique fights, difficult clues to a strange path to find, riddles....things to catch my interest. One of my favorite RPG game moments is the end of Chrono Cross and beating Lavos with the proper element order instead of just whacking him to death. Never directly stated in the game, not even needed to "win". Something you have to catch to truly "get it".

[dasva]

Yeah I'd like to see some more strategy in the fights instead of just put on as many god buffs as you can and stun and gooooo.

Ya know actually tanking, regular buffs you can keep up full time over time, debuffing *gasp*, maybe even resist builds, mobs that don't let you pile everyone on them and you can't kill before PD wears off but at the same time don't have stupid no matter who you are I'm going to definitely one shot you moves etc.

Definitely locked off areas and such. Puzzle mobs sound nice and all but knowning SE they will make it stupid like /kneel or fuming in the front of the enemy or in the case of AV somethign no one has yet to figure out. And a return to events, battles, etc where the profit vs time investment/difficulty is worth it. And not just for the lucky leaders or the people that get it lucky in there pool but the group or the soloist whatever

[Darkmagi]

Yeah I really do want another locked off region like sky/sea. I thought WOE was going to be that for WOTG, but was obviously let down.

[Tarage]

Good music.

[Karbuncle]

Yeah I'd like to see some more strategy in the fights instead of just put on as many god buffs as you can and stun and gooooo.

Ya know actually tanking, regular buffs you can keep up full time over time, debuffing *gasp*, maybe even resist builds, mobs that don't let you pile everyone on them and you can't kill before PD wears off but at the same time don't have stupid no matter who you are I'm going to definitely one shot you moves etc.

Definitely locked off areas and such. Puzzle mobs sound nice and all but knowning SE they will make it stupid like /kneel or fuming in the front of the enemy or in the case of AV somethign no one has yet to figure out. And a return to events, battles, etc where the profit vs time investment/difficulty is worth it. And not just for the lucky leaders or the people that get it lucky in there pool but the group or the soloist whatever

Design a fight like this. How would you do it? You know what you want more than anyone, Explain to me how you would make a fight like how you asked.

I've actually given it some thought before, Seems hard to do within FFXI's system. But entirely possible. I wanna hear your ideas though :O

That being said, IDK what i want from this expansion lol.

[Yugl]

The best way to do that is to break up the PT into groups with different objectives. Using current events as an analogy, the event would be like completing 5 different assaults at once. After completion, the group reunites to fight against a NM.

[Taim Meich]

The NM could also have different phases, alternating physical and/or magical invulnerabilities, all in order to add an artificial length to the fight that would make PD and/or CS Stun not as useful since they could not last all the fight. As for Embrava, instead of assuming it's going to be present and raise the mob defenses too much to compensate, it could have a fast-growing PDT and MDT that increased with the physical or magical damage done. For example, for every 4k damage done in physical form, it would gain 10% PDT and lose 5% MDT, and likewise for magical damage (percentages are only an example, of course). This would force the party to also use magic damage, and at the very least, slow down the damage increased by Embrava significantly.

As for the NM offenses, in order to encourage tanking, it should have very damaging single target normal hits and TP moves, while still having a decent array of AoE spells and TP moves. The former would encourage a job designed to take hits to tank it, and the latter would make NIN tanking not clearly the best (but the frequency of the AoE attacks should be low enough to make it viable).

On top of that, it could have some sort of specific trigger mechanics, not universal, like Abyssea, Dyna and VW procs, but rather battle-related. Something like the NM says a line, and if you do certain action, a small cutscene triggers and it's temporarily weakened, etc.


Not perfect by all means, but I think those would be good starting points to make interesting boss fights.

[Karbuncle]

The best way to do that is to break up the PT into groups with different objectives. Using current events as an analogy, the event would be like completing 5 different assaults at once. After completion, the group reunites to fight against a NM.

Not exactly a bad start. What would the objectives be? Would it be randomized where each party goes? Would you be able to chose? Would you all start in the same room? Would there be enemies along the way? Will those enemies effect bosses drop rates, or improve drops (Think ANNM), Will those enemies have any drops themselves (Think Salvage 15's)?

Will the Objectives be different each time, or the same ones over and over. If its the same objective, the novelty will wear off in a few fights for most, like Salvage became... just another routine. Pick a route and take it.

I think if we did it your way, There should be an Option to just go straight to the boss, But each side-objective would Increase bosses drop rate, Weaken his Defense, or Weaken his offense, Or lessen how often he uses his damaging abilities, maybe it spawns adds, and doing them may weaken the adds.

This makes the side missions optional, for players who don't like the idea of repeating them every time, But gives those who can brave the Obstacles to reap better rewards. Sure some will fall into a routine of "DO these 3 for best results" - But that'll happen no matter what, and if its forced all side areas, It'll annoy people in the long run.

Even then, Once you finish the side areas, the boss will still be just a zerg fest. How would you stop the boss from being a zerg fest? How would you make it require a tank? These are tough questions. You could give it a charm move to stop Zergs, But then you'd also damage the use of a Tank, since it can use a FU Move anytime.

You could program it to recognize Perfect Defense, and have it go into a rage mode with PD Active, making it have a huge reduction to damage taken while its active, This would prevent at least PD Zergs, and encourage normal play. Could also make it to where it does not have the pDif cap of 1.0 that monster have, so having huge amounts of Defense would actually heavily impact it. Give it NonElemental Magic Physical attacks, Making PDT/MDT useless, But Defense would significantly reduce its damage, and Shield blocks even further so, Making it to where your typical DD/Tank with PDT/MDT sets won't hold up well against it, But a PLD, which naturally high Defense, and Shield, Will tank it effectively since they'd be able to get defense high enough to naturally survive better with less buff focus. Making it strong enough that cure bombing a DD Tank would not be effective.

But then you could easily gear up a WAR or so to a defensive build, Protect V, maybe even a Minne or something, and he'd still likely out DD the PLD who would get marches. But then some groups might chose to have the PLD anyway, for more buff focus on DDs.

Could also give the Enemy a directional resistance. Where Any attacks, Not coming from the tank, take severely reduced damage except when from behind, on the side, or in the front (It would rotate throughout the fight, maybe triggered by a TP move). This would benefit a solid tank, Since the Enemy would be facing one direction.

Could also have it to where, Like the Pixie in Abyssea, anytime it switches targets, It could do something dangerous. Maybe a strong TP move, making "DD Zerging" a bad idea since it would spam its super TP move over and over with hate flying everywhere. This would encourage careful play and maintaining hate. Maybe even a use for Collaborate/Accomplice for once. It a "Strong TP move" is too easily avoidable, It could also inflict Amnesia and some other debuffs, Weakness even. Or it could just be a punishing single target move. Maybe When it switches enmity it does a strong magical single target move, Ala Eyes On Me, that might kill a lesser DD.

Could also make it a Temporary switch, or remember its last target, So if it say, Switches off PLD to a DD > Kills the DD > When it switches back to PLD, It won't trigger the Move. This would also make it difficult to survive with a DD tank, as if he's killed, it could create a chain-effect of people being one shotted, So a strong reliable defensive tank would be prudent.

Making it alternate Physical/Magical Inv. Would just hurt a Paladin tank as much as any other job, Since it would be useless during Physical Inv. stage. Want to limit physically nerfing aspect, But still discourage zerging.

Enmity reset moves would also kill PLD, so they should be removed entirely from the concept of the fight.

The idea of special triggers helping the fight could be a good idea. But these triggers should not be specific WS/TP moves, and should not terror the enemy, this encourages locking + Zerging it. For instance,

The Enemy could move throughout the fight to a certain "Aura" Area, It would of course have draw in... But

*If it moves to the north corner of the room, It will receive a potent MDB,
*If it moves to the South side of the room, It gains a potent Physical Resistances
*If it moves to the East side of the room, It gains the ability to Chainspell, and Immunity to stun.
*If it moves to the West side of the room, It gains a Hundred-Fist like Effect, and Immunity to stun.

You can encourage it to move based on actions taken. It moves every 1~2 minutes based on a few things. Like say

- Moving it North would be triggered by hitting it heavily with magic moves,
- Moving it South would be triggered from heavy physical damage.
- Moving it East would be from Stunning its Magical moves too often.
- Moving it West would be from Stunning TP moves too often.

This allows you to control the outcome of the fight, and also encourage a good tank so you don't have him chainspelling/Hundred Fisting because of needing to stun often, Also it encourages a diverse damage groups, since it can gain heavy resistances either way based on your strongest damage output during that time.

So recap:

1) Have it Use a very strong, Single target move that will bypass Perfect Defense if it switches its current target, Like the Pixie in Abyssea. This discourages Zerging because it would end up killing everyone in seconds with your typical zerg fest.

2) Have it have Ever changing Directional Immunities, Or Damage immunities, To All but the current tank.

3) Have its Physical Attacks bypass PDT/MDT entirely, Making Defense the strongest and most key function to defending it, thus PLD's, Who have naturally higher defense, Would need less "Maintenance" than a DD would to stay alive. Have Shield Blocks do much better against it as well.

4) The Direction Concept above, North/south/etc.

I think the idea of objectives leading up to the fight would be a good idea as well, But if its the same every time, You fall into the routine of salvage, which novelty wore off quickly for most players.

[Rocl]

How about upon pop the monster puts 2HR on cooldown and you can't buff beforehand? '~' No temp items, so no Revitalizer, and you couldn't use a COR to reset because their 2HR would be down too. Fuck, you could make an available 2HR an entry condition, and upon entering your 2HR is set to maximum recast.

I mentioned in a previous thread but I never liked CS+Stun and I don't care for PD+Embrava either, despite loving every job involved in those situations =P

[Karbuncle]

How about upon pop the monster puts 2HR on cooldown and you can't buff beforehand? '~' No temp items, so no Revitalizer, and you couldn't use a COR to reset because their 2HR would be down too. Fuck, you could make an available 2HR an entry condition, and upon entering your 2HR is set to maximum recast.

I mentioned in a previous thread but I never liked CS+Stun and I don't care for PD+Embrava either, despite loving every job involved in those situations =P

Seems kinda... cave-man-ny, Not really creative. I mean, at its core, Its a workable solution lol... I guess easy ways are not exactly bad O_O, Would save SE a lot of time.

[The Stig]

Question I was thinking if the game would go beyond level 99 (because level 105 sounds dumb for me) or would it be back to massive sidegrades?

[Yugl]

To allow "skipping", just have the mega-boss drop items that allow for bypassing certain objectives like with Omega's pod spawns. Change the mechanics of "tanking" to be a class that acts as a support specializing in reduced damage for the entire group (I wrote about this within some other thread, so no details here). Make the NMs badasses. You can easily prevent zergs via phases (Taim Meich's suggestion), AOE dispelga+high DMG, high damage/add effect spikes, or even 2hrs such as Perfect Dodge. Remember that prior objectives will constrain the type of setup allowed anyways. Now you have a focus for future PLD updates (Inevitable), a new event (Inevitable), fixed tanking, prevented zerging, and varied PT set up.

As for drops, make the mini-objectives give drops at a decent rate (10%) and have the boss give drops using an Odin based system.

Objectives should have their own distinct category to ensure the viability of certain classes (EX: DD Objective, Tank + Enfeeble Objective, etc). Within those objectives, randomize. You can also randomize the mobs as with Nyzul/MMM to make a scenario that rewards people for knowledge of mobs as opposed to studying a single strategy for each objective.

[Karbuncle]

To allow "skipping", just have the mega-boss drop items that allow for bypassing certain objectives like with Omega's pod spawns. Change the mechanics of "tanking" to be a class that acts as a support specializing in reduced damage for the entire group (I wrote about this within some other thread, so no details here). Make the NMs badasses. You can easily prevent zergs via phases (Taim Meich's suggestion), AOE dispelga+high DMG, high damage/add effect spikes, or even 2hrs such as Perfect Dodge. Remember that prior objectives will constrain the type of setup allowed anyways. Now you have a focus for future PLD updates (Inevitable), a new event (Inevitable), fixed tanking, prevented zerging, and varied PT set up.

As for drops, make the mini-objectives give drops at a decent rate (10%) and have the boss give drops using an Odin based system.

Objectives should have their own distinct category to ensure the viability of certain classes (EX: DD Objective, Tank + Enfeeble Objective, etc). Within those objectives, randomize. You can also randomize the mobs as with Nyzul/MMM to make a scenario that rewards people for knowledge of mobs as opposed to studying a single strategy for each objective.

You read what i wrote, Including Edits? I think i might go post these suggestions on the Official forums. Maybe they'll see it and take it into consideration.

[Mrbeansman]

Previous experience has made me lose all faith that SE can do what your asking for right.

[Yugl]

No, I didn't see the edits.

[Mrbeansman]

No, I didn't see the edits.

6 In the morning leave me alone.

[Yugl]

What? Karb asked if I saw his edits. I did not.

Now that I have seen them though, cutting through PDT/MDT wouldn't make PLD *that* much better. The difference would purely depend on shield rate and dependence on a single class is a 'meh' move in my opinion. That's why I like the option of throwing tanks into a defense support category since you can add RUN, PLD, SMN, and possibly NIN depending on the abilities you give them/modify. Remember that the sole reason for SMNs, atm, is PD/EA; if you begin cutting PD from the equation, you throw SMN into lolterritory all over again.

Also, positioning will depend on how they implement GEO. You may end up screwing over the class if you have no control over the mob's position.

[Taim Meich]

Also, some kind of part-breaking mechanics, like breaking imp horns could be neat. If you WS the NM from the left side when it's casting a spell, you break its left wing (for example) and no longer can do the wing-flapping TP move, but the breaking does trigger an Roar TP move that dispels everything: Do you want to avoid the annoyance of the wing TP move (let's assume it's quite annoying), being forced to rebuff, or prefer conserving the potent buffs, but deal with the wing flap? The breaking should only be possible a few minutes after the fight has commenced, to avoid breaking immediately while unbuffed and then buffing.

Karbuncle's idea of the NM moving around the arena upon certain triggers, having different behaviors on each place is neat, as well as Yugl's PLd idea of "protects the whole party", instead of being only himself the only sturdy one.

The path with objectives leading to the NM I like, if only to emulate the sensation of classic RPGs of climbing a tower/going through a dungeon to get to the boss.

Remember that the sole reason for SMNs, atm, is PD/EA; if you begin cutting PD from the equation, you throw SMN into lolterritory all over again.

Which reminds me! Any suggestion to encourage pet jobs? From something gimmick to a part of the NM that spams a very annoying TP move but can only be damaged by pets (fight would be possible without pets, of course, just more annoying/risky), to an aura that granted great defenses to pets (would not help SMN much, but would help the others fight without their pets constantly dying), to, I don't know, other stuff. 20% of the current jobs in the game use pets, they have to be acknowledged.




Also, a complete revamp of the enmity system would allow for more interesting fights and would make tanking more viable, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

[Guitarman]

I'm alot more hesitant than you guys are to welcome standard tanks into endgame again. I remember so many groups for various activities breaking up because we couldn't find a ninja/paladin. I'm not sure I want that back. At least with DD tanking groups won't fall apart for lack of a tank. Fixing the enmity system is great and all, but then you fall back to the problem of getting people that want to tank. I know far, far more people that want to just beat shit up as a DD.

PD/emabrava zering has to go, though. Even if it means what I said above happening.