NSLs: Our government going too far?

[Misterjingles]

Posted on Slashdot and Washington Post

Bascially, a president of an IT buisness received a NSL (National Security Letter) from the FBI, which demanded that this person release sensitive information about one of his clients (with no judge reviewing or approving the letter), it was ultimately no longer needed, but because of the gag order included in this letter, he cannot contact Congress to discuss his experience and make changes in this law.

Having secret police and no accountability goes against the very grain of what the United States stands for, and what the Constitution says. Our forefathers explicitly ensured that we would have the rights necessary to overthrow our government if things got out of hand. The government exists to serve the people, not the other way around.

Your thoughts?

::edit:: Fixed quote >_>;;

[BerenTebogo]

I'm against the patriot act, and everything that has stemmed from it (the U.S. version of the KGB for one)

Basically, fuck it, the U.S. is screwed if the democrats don't have at least 12 years in office to undo this madness.

I'm moving to australia or something.

[Septimus]

What was that Ben?

"Those who sacrifice their liberties for security deserve neither"?

Wait, you aren't Jesus!

[Daahan]

Posted on Slashdot and Washington Post

Bascially, a president of an IT buisness received a NSL (National Security Letter) from the FBI, which demanded that this person release sensitive information about one of his clients (with no judge reviewing or approving the letter), it was ultimately no longer needed, but because of the gag order included in this letter, he cannot contact Congress to discuss his experience and make changes in this law.

Having secret police and no accountability goes against the very grain of what the United States stands for, and what the Constitution says. Our forefathers explicitly ensured that we would have the rights necessary to overthrow our government if things got out of hand. The government exists to serve the people, not the other way around.

Your thoughts?

::edit:: Fixed quote >_>;;

want to know what is extremely sad about this?

I'm not surprised. And I'm sure 95% of the people on these forums are not surprised. This kind of crap has become normal.

The notion of a "private life" is starting to disappear.

[Charla]

I'm against the patriot act, and everything that has stemmed from it (the U.S. version of the KGB for one)

Basically, fuck it, the U.S. is screwed if the democrats don't have at least 12 years in office to undo this madness.

I'm moving to australia or something.

If they don't get distracted by something else, it'll only take 2-3 years. Undoing this sort of thing tends to be a bit easier than some of the stuff they'll have to undo. Restoring Europe's opinion of us will probably take more like 50 years, for instance.

[BerenTebogo]

What was that Ben?

"Those who sacrifice their liberties for security deserve neither"?

Wait, you aren't Jesus!

One of the greatest quotes ever.

If they don't get distracted by something else, it'll only take 2-3 years. Undoing this sort of thing tends to be a bit easier than some of the stuff they'll have to undo. Restoring Europe's opinion of us will probably take more like 50 years, for instance.

You're completely right.

But on the same hand, when was the last time a politician (even the ones I support) have been able to plan a track for something important and follow through quickly and decisively?

[Charla]

when was the last time a politician (even the ones I support) have been able to plan a track for something important and follow through quickly and decisively?

That depends on what you count as something important. Politicians get stuff done every day, we just don't hear about it much. And then there are things that you and I probably don't approve of so much (tax cuts, patriot act, firing random prosecutors, Iraq...) which were planned out and executed efficiently.

As for things worth doing, Schwarzzenheger probably managed something.

[Misterjingles]

Then we must ready the four boxes!

Four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo - use in that order.

Bill Maher[/url]]
Liberals must stop saying President Bush hasn't asked Americans to sacrifice for the war on terror. On the contrary, he's asked us to sacrifice something enormous. Our civil rights.

Now, when I heard George Bush was reading my emails, I probably had the same reaction you did: George Bush can read?! Yes, he can. And this administration has read your phone records, credit card statements, mail, Internet logs. I can't tell if they're fighting a war on terror or producing the next season of "Cheaters." I mail myself a copy of the Constitution every morning just on the hope they'll open it and see what it says.

So -so when it comes to sacrifice, don't kid yourself. You have given up a lot. You've given up faith in your government's honesty, the goodwill of people overseas, and six-tenths of the Bill of Rights. Here's what you've sacrificed: search and seizure, warrants, self-incrimination, trial by jury, cruel and unusual punishment. Here's what you have left: hand guns, religion, and they can't make you quarter a British soldier. If Prince Harry invades the Inland Empire, he has to bring a tent.

You know, in previous wars on the home front made a very different kind of sacrifice. During World War II, we endured rationing, paid higher taxes, bought war bonds, and in the interest of national unity, people even pretended Bob Hope was funny. Right, like you laughed at him.

Okay, women, donated their silk undergarments so they could be sewn into parachutes. Can you imagine nowadays a Britney Spears or a Lindsay Lohan going without underwear? Bad example.

But, look, George Bush has never been too bright about understanding "fereigners." But he does know Americans. He asked this generation to sacrifice the things he knew we would not miss: our privacy and our morality. He let us keep the money. But he made a cynical bet that we wouldn't much care if we became a "Big Brother" country that has now tortured a lot of random people.

And yet no one asks the tough questions like, "Is torture necessary?" "Who will watch the watchers?" "And when does Jack Bauer go to the bathroom?" I mean, it's been five years. Is he wearing one of those astronaut diapers?

In conclusion, after 9/11, President Bush told us Osama bin Laden could run but he couldn't hide. But, then he ran and hid. So, Bush went to Plan B: pissing on the Constitution and torturing random people.

Conservatives always say the great thing Reagan did was make us feel good about America again. Well, do you feel good about America now? I'll give you my answer, and to get it out of me, you don't even have to hold my head underwater and have a snarling guard dog rip my nuts off. No, I don't feel very good about that.

They say evil happens when good men do nothing. Well, the Democrats prove it also happens when mediocre people do nothing.

::edit:: added Bill Maher quote.

[MF Perm]

Bill Maher is the shit. I love that he is the anti-Bill O'reilly in that when he brings guests on from the right, he gives them time to speak and voice their opinion, and then he just shits all over it with pure logic.

And him calling Democrats pussies is just <3.

[Misterjingles]

He sums up perfectly what needs to be said though.

[Marquisate]

The Patriot Act is a very scary document. Did you know that the eight federal prosecutors who were fired recently were replaced with special interim prosecutors, appointed by the president, who could be kept in office effectively forever, without having to face Congressional scrutiny? The president could have put eight freshly-graduated law school students in charge of those offices, and their competence, impartiality and past records would not be able to be called into question. Gonzalez's chief of staff was so cynical about the power that the Patriot Act gave the executive branch that he actually wrote, word for word, in an e-mail "what's the point of having this power [the ability to appoint interim prosecutors] if we don't use it?" and he blatantly admitted that his office would be faking "good faith." Small wonder he resigned the day the scandal broke.

The sole consolation I can take away from the fact that Bush's incompetence has destroyed our international credibility, crippled our ability to work with other nations to fight terrorism, exposed our military to tens of thousands of casualties, severely damaged our civil liberties, bloated our federal deficit and debt, apathetically ignored or mishandled domestic problems including poverty, education, health care and social security, is the fact that he looks increasingly sad, defeated and pathetic every time he goes up to the podium to explain his newest fuckup.

I'd hope that he feels every death and injury that occurs in Iraq, American and Iraqi, but he's too stupid and too dogmatically dedicated to his simplistic worldview to understand his culpability for their suffering. I'll stop here before I get any more pissed off thinking about how badly this administration has mismanaged our country.

[Charla]

Come on guys, if we can keep this up until someone actually disagrees with it, we can get a pretty good political debate going here.

[megabyte]

As someone who works under the Patriot Act, I approve of the legislation and hope it continues forward.

As for you people that disagree with the act: The legislation was renewed on March 9th, but included a few changes to act as "safegaurds".

They are:

·Requiring High-Level Approval and Additional Reporting to Congress for Section 215 Requests for Sensitive Information Such as Library or Medical Records: Without the personal approval of one of these 3 officials (FBI Director, Deputy Director or Official-in-Charge of Intelligence), the 215 order for these sensitive categories of records may not be issued.

·Statement of Facts Showing Relevance to a Terrorism or Foreign Spy Investigation Required for Section 215 Requests: The conference report requires that a Section 215 application must include a statement of facts demonstrating that the records sought are "relevant" to an authorized investigation to obtain terrorism or foreign intelligence information. This statement of facts civil liberty safeguard contained in the conference report does NOT exist under current law.

·Explicitly Allowing a United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) Court Judge to Deny or Modify a Section 215 Request: The USA PATRIOT Act conference report explicitly provides a FISA Court judge the discretion to not only approve or modify a Section 215 application, but also to deny an application.

·Requiring Minimization Procedures to Limit Retention and Dissemination of Information Obtained About U.S. Persons From Section 215 Requests: The USA PATRIOT Act conference report requires that the Attorney General create minimization procedures for the retention and dissemination of this data and that the FBI use these procedures. This civil liberty safeguard is not contained in current law and was requested by Senator Leahy.

·Explicitly Providing for a Judicial Challenge to a Section 215 Order: Current law requires judicial review before a Section 215 can be issued. The pending USA PATRIOT Act conference report explicitly established a judicial review process after the 215 order has been issued, to allow the recipient of a 215 order to challenge the order before the FISA Court.

·Explicitly Clarifying that a Recipient of a Section 215 Order May Disclose Receipt to an Attorney or Others Necessary to Comply with or Challenge the Order: Current law is silent as to whether a 215 order recipient may disclose the receipt of such an order to an attorney to comply with the order. The pending USA PATRIOT Act conference report clarifies this issue by stating explicitly that the recipient of a 215 order may disclose receipt to an attorney or others necessary to comply with or challenge the order.

·Requiring Public Reporting of the Number of Section 215 Orders: At the request of Senator Leahy and other Senate Democratic conferees, the USA PATRIOT Act Conference report requires the Justice Department to report to the public annually the aggregate number of Section 215 applications submitted, approved, modified, and denied.

·Requiring the Justice Department's Independent Inspector General to Conduct an Audit of Each Justice Department Use of Section 215 Orders: The USA PATRIOT Act conference report provides additional public information and congressional oversight by requiring the Justice Department's independent Inspector General to conduct an audit for each Justice Department use of Section 215 orders.

·Explicitly Providing for a Judicial Challenge to a National Security Letter (NSL): Current Law does not specify that an NSL can be challenged in court and provides no process for challenging an NSL. The conference report provides explicit authority to challenge in court an NSL under all existing statutes authorizing NSLs. This civil liberty safeguard is stronger than the Senate-passed bill, which only addressed one of the NSL statutes, does not exist under current law, and was written by Rep. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.).

·Explicitly Clarifying that a Recipient of a National Security Letter (NSL) May Disclose Receipt to an Attorney or Others Necessary to Comply with or Challenge the Order: Current law is silent as to whether an NSL may disclose the receipt of such an order to an attorney to comply with or challenge the order. The pending USA PATRIOT Act conference report clarifies this issue by stating explicitly that the recipient of an NSL may disclose receipt to an attorney or others necessary to comply with or challenge the order.

·Providing that a Nondisclosure Order Does Not Automatically Attach to a National Security Letter (NSL): Instead, a nondisclosure requirement will attach to an NSL only upon a certification by the government that disclosure could cause one of the harms specified in the conference report, such as endangering a witness or threatening national security.

·Providing Explicit Judicial Review of a Nondisclosure Requirement to a National Security Letter (NSL): The NSL recipient may challenge the nondisclosure requirement in the U.S. district court for the district in which the recipient does business or resides.

·Requiring Public Reporting of the Number of National Security Letters (NSLs): At the request of Senator Leahy and other Senate Democratic conferees, the USA PATRIOT Act conference report includes – for the first time – public reporting on the aggregate number of NSLs requested for information about U.S. persons.

·Requiring the Justice Department’s Independent Inspector General to Conduct Two Audits of the Use of National Security Letters (NSLs): The USA PATRIOT Act conference report provides additional public information and congressional oversight by requiring the Justice Department’s independent Inspector General to conduct two audits on the use of NSLs during the years 2003 - 2006.

·Requiring Additional Reporting to Congress by the Justice Department on Use of National Security Letters (NSLs): Specifically, the conference report requires the House and Senate Judiciary Committees to receive all classified reports regarding use of NSLs; currently these committees only receive classified reports under one of the five statutes authorizing NSLs.

·Requiring the Justice Department to Re-Certify that Nondisclosure of a National Security Letter (NSL) is Necessary: If an NSL recipient challenges the prohibition on disclosure more than a year after the NSL is issued, the Justice Department must re-certify that nondisclosure is necessary, or else the nondisclosure requirement lapses.

·Narrowing the Deference Given to the Justice Department on a National Security Letter (NSL) Nondisclosure Certification: At the request of Senator Leahy, this heightened degree of deference is only provided to certifications made by a few Senate-confirmed officials at the time the nondisclosure petition is filed.

·Requiring a Report to Congress on Any Use of Data-Mining Programs by the Justice Department: The USA PATRIOT Act conference report enhances congressional oversight of data-mining programs by requiring the Justice Department to report to Congress on the use or development of any of these programs by the Justice Department.

·Requiring Notice Be Given on Delayed-Notice Search Warrants Within 30 Days of the Search: The USA PATRIOT Act reauthorization conference report narrows and clarifies the reasonable amount of time standard by providing a Court the discretion to delay notice for up to 30 days after the search is executed.

·Limiting Delayed-Notice Search Warrants Extensions to 90 Days or Less: The USA PATRIOT Act conference report narrows and clarifies the permissible delayed-notice extension period by providing a Court the discretion to extend the delay of notice for up to 90 days.

·Requiring an Updated Showing of Necessity in Order to Extend the Delay of Notice of a Search Warrant: To ensure that a Court considering extending a delay of notice has the best and most up-to-date information, the USA PATRIOT Act conference report requires an updated show of necessity by the applicant in order to extend the delay of notice of a search warrant.

·Requiring Annual Public Reporting on the Use of Delayed-Notice Search Warrant: Specifically, the annual public report will include the “number of applications for warrants and extensions of warrants authorizing delayed notice, and the number of such warrants and extensions granted or denied during the preceding fiscal year.”

·Requiring Additional Specificity from an Applicant Before Roving Surveillance May be Authorized: The USA PATRIOT Act conference report addresses concerns about vagueness in applications for “roving” wiretaps in foreign spying and terrorism investigations by requiring additional specificity in these applications in order for a FISA Court judge to consider authorizing a “roving” wiretap.

·Requiring Court Notification Within 10 Days of Conducting Surveillance on a New Facility Using a “Roving” Wiretap: The USA PATRIOT Act conference report addresses concerns the “roving” wiretap authority could be abused by requiring the investigators to inform the FISA Court within 10 days when the “roving” surveillance authority is used to target a new facility.

·Requiring Ongoing FISA Court Notification of the Total Number of Places or Facilities Under Surveillance Using a “Roving” Wiretap: The USA PATRIOT Act conference report enhances judicial oversight to address any concerns that the “roving” wiretap authority could be abused. Specifically, the conference report requires the FISA Court to be informed on an ongoing basis of the total number of places or facilities under surveillance using a “roving” wiretap authority.

·Requiring Additional Specificity in a FISA Court Judge’s Order Authorizing a “Roving” Wiretap: The USA PATRIOT Act conference report addresses concerns about vagueness about the target in a FISA Court judge’s order authorizing a “roving” wiretap in foreign spying and terrorism investigations by requiring additional specificity.

·Providing a Four-Year Sunset on FISA “Roving” Wiretap: Despite no evidence that the FISA “roving” wiretap authority has been abused, the USA PATRIOT Act conference report aggressively attempts to avoid any potential abuse of FISA “roving” wiretaps by providing a four-year sunset of this authority.

[Four-Year Sunset means that in 4 years, the "Roving" Wiretap authorization expires and has to be run though congress once again, and singed by the president.]

I don't know if that helps your peace of mind, but I can assure you that this legislation is needed to insure the security of our nation.

[Cleveland]

Those who speak out against the Patriot Act obviously have something to hide or are involved in illegal activity.

Wanna tap my phone? Go right ahead. I ain't doing shit, what do I care.
Wanna monitor my internet usage? Be my guest.

Any person or group who actively opposes this (Whats up CAIR) is definately involved in some shit....no doubt about it. I hardly think your downloads of beastiality porn are of concern to the FBI, but the guy next door downloading instructions on making a dirty bomb and a schematic of the local sports arena might send up a few red flags.

Its time people wake up and realize that those hell bent on the fall of the US are operating on our soil. How many buildings have to fall before these liberal asshats realize that their bullshit hippy ideaology doesn't work?

[solsovly]

Those who speak out against the Patriot Act obviously have something to hide or are involved in illegal activity.

Wow... just wow.

[megabyte]

Any person or group who actively opposes this (Whats up CAIR) is definately involved in some shit....no doubt about it. I hardly think your downloads of beastiality porn are of concern to the FBI, but the guy next door downloading instructions on making a dirty bomb and a schematic of the local sports arena might send up a few red flags.

Well I can't speak for the FBI since it's a different agency, but our guidelines are a little more specific and focused. No, we don't care what kind of porn you watch either.











Unless it involves children or midgets.
Then your ass is mine.

[Darkmessenger]

It's scary; I'm not even surprised, not even by the people who defend such things.

And yes it will take a very long time before I (and other EUs, Aussies, and the rest of the world) will have a somehwat 'positive' view on the United States of America.

[BerenTebogo]

To Charla,

Sorry it took me so long to reply, I realized I was late for class and ran off, but yes, the government wouldn't be a stable organization if it was not able to carry out its mundane (in contrast) functions on a day-to-day basis.

My criticism of the process of government is not with democracy itself (that is a whole other topic for another day) but rather what OUR democracy has evolved in, in this post 9-11 era.

To blame Bush solely would be quite tempting, but in all honesty one man, no matter how powerful, can do anything without the support of his nation (Hitler spoke, people listened, as a rough example.) The American people as a majority, yes the south and midwest do make up the majority, have sinned against freedom in a way that Septimus summed up with his Benjamin Franklin quote.

The U.S.A. was as a nation a victim of a heinous terrorist attack and however you feel personally, morally, or politically about it, it is what it is. The American people in giving unjust power to George W. Bush and his advisors have subjected themselves to an ongoing terrorist attack from their own government. We live in a 'fear state' of faceless suicide bombings, dwindling support from around the world for our country, and the conversion of a democracy to a totalitarianistic rule under which one man claims absolute power in the name of protecting his citizens.

Whether or not the War on Iraq, the War on Terror, the War on Drugs, are imminent threats to our well-being as a society or not has ceased to be the prevailing issue for our country, which it SHOULD be. Bush has convinced the American people that they ARE in imminent danger from every aspect of the world, even from ourselves.

Undoing the damage Bush has done legislatively (is that a word?) is something that I agree with you completely on when you mark it as under half a decade, however undoing the brainwashing of the American people and to restore balance to the congress, as well as fully withdrawing from the Middle East is where I fear that the Democrats may have an overwhelming task that could take a decade to fully see through to fruition.

I hate Bush, and I hate relating real life to movies, but we (maybe not the posters in this thread per-se but the american people) gave Bush his power, much like in V for Vendetta. There are a lot of scared people in this country who are still, even now in 2007, willing to sacrifice key freedoms in order to feel safe from 'dem dirty terrorists'

Educating the public, and turning this country around before social conflict and inevitably civil conflict reaches an out-of-hand situation is the greatest problem.

I for one would much rather watch from Australia or Asia, where at least I know what I'm getting myself into.



And yes, Schwarzenegger (sp) does have a skill for being a politician, he has really surprised me. I live in MA, 3000 miles away from any impact he could have on me, and I support him 100%

Now to read the rest of the posts and go watch blood+ :D

[Misterjingles]

As someone who works under the Patriot Act, I approve of the legislation and hope it continues forward.

As for you people that disagree with the act: The legislation was renewed on March 9th, but included a few changes to act as "safegaurds".

They are:

stuff

I don't know if that helps your peace of mind, but I can assure you that this legislation is needed to insure the security of our nation.

That's fine, as long as there are "watchers over the watchers" there is no issue here*. Which branch do you work with and what document was that from megabyte?

::edit:: No issue with me*

[BerenTebogo]

Those who speak out against the Patriot Act obviously have something to hide or are involved in illegal activity.

Wanna tap my phone? Go right ahead. I ain't doing shit, what do I care.
Wanna monitor my internet usage? Be my guest.

Any person or group who actively opposes this (Whats up CAIR) is definately involved in some shit....no doubt about it. I hardly think your downloads of beastiality porn are of concern to the FBI, but the guy next door downloading instructions on making a dirty bomb and a schematic of the local sports arena might send up a few red flags.

Its time people wake up and realize that those hell bent on the fall of the US are operating on our soil. How many buildings have to fall before these liberal asshats realize that their bullshit hippy ideaology doesn't work?

Hate to double post, but I need to respond to this.

Your outlook on this is 100% Ok. In fact, I support it, it's absolutely correct. BUT NOT IN A DEMOCRACY OF THE PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE BY THE PEOPLE.

I have ABSOLUTELY nothing to hide, sure I may download a tad too much hentai or watch too much girl on girl porn, but hell, I'm not hiding it. America is based on freedom, the sanctity of privacy is tantamount to the foundation of this country.

This is not Russia, this is not the middle east, if you want to live under an oppressive rule where you are assured 100% that the government is going to watch out for your safety and regulate everything, that's absolutely fine, and it's your choice.

But America is not the place for it, not by a fucking long shot.

Live Free Or Die, that's America, not 'invade my privacy and control my life'