General Basics of NIN/DRK Tanking/Kiting

[elison]

I've done some searching for general basics of NIN/DRK tanking and/or kiting, but I haven't found much. I'm leveling NIN atm in hopes of being able to tank most of sky, whether it's triggers such as Faust, or the gods themselves. Thankfully, I do have DRK sub fully leveled and ready thanks to having leveled RDM to 75 in my career.

What are some things I need to keep in mind while I do tank as NIN/DRK? Is there anything that I should stay away from tanking in sky atm? Any suggestions on certain gear I should invest in?

Thanks in advance.

[Ryko]

Can't answer, avatar distracting.

[Tiernin]

http://rukenshin.livejournal.com/

Search here he has a good guide to nin/drk including gear.

Stun, bind, sleep, kuryama or hojo....repeat

[elison]

http://rukenshin.livejournal.com/

Already looked, it doesn't help with much of what I'm trying to discover.

[Sylphet]

http://rukenshin.livejournal.com/

That guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Pay him no mind.

[Blackice]

As Syl said, Ruke's a nub with a butter knife for a relic.

[Tiernin]

I use:
main: E staff
head: turban
body: arhats +1
earrings: eris
rings: BBQ + mermaid
pants: haidate
waist: swift
back: high breath mantle
neck: harmonia
feet: fuma
hands: dusk

see above for the spells.
I have 120 MP with this setup. With refresh + ballad 2 I never have issues with MP

I focus on haste > emnity > -dmg > hp

You can use SE and LR for huge hate spikes, but generally they are not needed, especially if you are dual tanking.

better?

[Sylphet]

http://rukenshin.livejournal.com/

Already looked, it doesn't help with much of what I'm trying to discover.

Might help to be a bit more specific then. Because all kidding aside, what's in Ruke's LJ answers the things you generally asked about. So if that doesn't tell you what you need might be good to elaborate.

[Demetrius*]

really don't need nin/drk for anything in sky less you plan on solo tanking a god.

[Epoxy]

nin/drk tanking in a nutshell:

1. keep your shadows up
2. souleater for hate
3. cast spells for hate (stun/bind/sleep/kurayami/etc)

end! pretty easy

[Erza]

you guys prefer hades earring+1 over eris for /drk?

[elison]

really don't need nin/drk for anything in sky less you plan on solo tanking a god.

This is my plan. Also, I choose Hades+1 over Eris, for MP issues. Thanks for the input.

http://rukenshin.livejournal.com/

Already looked, it doesn't help with much of what I'm trying to discover.

Might help to be a bit more specific then. Because all kidding aside, what's in Ruke's LJ answers the things you generally asked about. So if that doesn't tell you what you need might be good to elaborate.

The things in Rukenshin's LJ talk about tanking things such as.. Bv2, Tiamat, etc. My linkshell isn't ready for these type of things, we're doing mostly sky at the moment. Our main PLD is getting bored, and I recently picked up NIN again, so I thought I could let him come RDM and I could take over tanking most of sky for the LS. Seeing how I'm new to the whole NIN/DRK thing, I'm just looking for basic tanking tips so I know what I need to do to hold hate and the such.

[Stellar]

Eris +1 > Hades..

My gear for /drk is very similar to the above poster.. Pretty much keep haste on full time since you're constantly spamming spells. Other considerations are Hades Sainti if you aren't gonna be taking much damage. Koga tekko at night if it's available to you. Last resort is insane hate, so save that for when you really need hate and it will pull a lot. The activation of souleater also makes quite a bit of hate, without hitting the mob at all. Also, if using earth staff don't forget about weapon bash like I always do .-.

[elison]

Eris +1 > Hades..

My gear for /drk is very similar to the above poster.. Pretty much keep haste on full time since you're constantly spamming spells. Other considerations are Hades Sainti if you aren't gonna be taking much damage. Koga tekko at night if it's available to you. Last resort is insane hate, so save that for when you really need hate and it will pull a lot. The activation of souleater also makes quite a bit of hate, without hitting the mob at all. Also, if using earth staff don't forget about weapon bash like I always do .-.

Seeing how I already have a Hades+1, I just assumed I'd go ahead and use that instead of dumping 1.2m into a Eris'+1. Thanks for the input.

[Mashu]

Ethereal Earring. I can't imagine playing /drk without it . Usually I'm given double marches, so MP regen is a bit of a problem with just refresh. Ethereal helps out significantly.

As far as spells you should cast, you should have a cycle:

Stun > Bind > Sleep I > Kury > Hojo and repeat.

Note, some NMs build resistance to the above spells, so replacing them w/ Absorb/Drain/Aspir/etc is fine. Use JAs whenever they're up.

Also, keep in mind, w/ double march, you only need 15% haste in gear (since double march is 20% and WHM haste is 15%) to max recast timers. Swap in enmity/-phys%/hp as you see fit.

Hades Sainti rocks, though take care while using them. NMs like Tiamat will deck you pretty hard. One double attack w/ MS not absorbed by Utsusemi can and will kill you. I normally just swap Hades in when using JAs or when I need to do so some significant enmity building (i.e. after roar). Otherwise, Earth Staff is better (cue the -phys% is better than +enmity debate XD).

[elison]

Ethereal Earring. I can't imagine playing /drk without it . Usually I'm given double marches, so MP regen is a bit of a problem with just refresh. Ethereal helps out significantly.

As far as spells you should cast, you should have a cycle:

Stun > Bind > Sleep I > Kury > Hojo and repeat.

Note, some NMs build resistance to the above spells, so replacing them w/ Absorb/Drain/Aspir/etc is fine. Use JAs whenever they're up.

Also, keep in mind, w/ double march, you only need 15% haste in gear (since double march is 20% and WHM haste is 15%) to max recast timers. Swap in enmity/-phys%/hp as you see fit.

Hades Sainti rocks, though take care while using them. NMs like Tiamat will deck you pretty hard. One double attack w/ MS not absorbed by Utsusemi can and will kill you. I normally just swap Hades in when using JAs or when I need to do so some significant enmity building (i.e. after roar). Otherwise, Earth Staff is better (cue the -phys% is better than +enmity debate XD).

Thank you very much, this helped out a lot.

[Weeks]

I use Last Resort, Souleater, and Weapon Bash as soon as they're available. It leaves me nothing to spike hate with when needed, but if you're burning through MP and /ja's as fast as you can you're not going to need to recover with a spike /ja.

I also don't get why some NINs say you macro in a haste setup for Stuns and shadows. You get at least as much hate by speeding up all the other spells you're casting and you don't blink on your healers. I'm not one generally inclined to compromise myself to make healers' jobs easier, but this is one case where you really don't gain anything by it.

[Amastacia]

really don't need nin/drk for anything in sky less you plan on solo tanking a god.

But why not do it?

NIN/WAR fails so fucking hard for hate it's not funny, might as well take NIN/DRKs and zerg the crap out of gods for quick, easy fights.

[RKenshin]

So originally I wasn't going to post, but I guess I will anyway.

There are a lot of ways people do it and really they can all work. When it comes down to it the difference between x's way and y's way doesn't make a mentionable difference at all. As long as you know what you're doing, understand hate, and know how to tank... NIN/DRK can be done just about any way you prefer beyond the obvious guidelines.

It's really all a lot more simple than it seems too, styles on the minor points mostly vary based on preference and experiences. The same way you may tank something easy like a Jailor, etc, would apply for what you'd do for '"harder" mobs like Tiamat, Cerberus, Omega, Ultima, etc. I can honestly say I wouldn't really do anything major differently in regards to tanking style between those mobs.

As far as my own way of playing it, it's mostly as follows:

To start, I really don't like spamming every single one of the hate tools whenever it's up unless you're doing so to balance hate with the other tank, or having hate problems, or in some kind of situation that calls for it. Going absolutely crazy with every hate JA/spell you can the second it's ready is just overkill for nearly all situations, and it leaves you without any way to get hate back fast in the event you lose hate. Large amounts of hate can just be lost from taking heavy damage, which can sometimes be unavoidable, not to mention things like horrid roar. Simply alternating 2-3 spells will plant hate on you as it is, and I'm not just saying that. People like Demetrius can attest to it as well, having tanked <50m manaburn Tiamat/Ouryus using just those spells and never losing hate. The spells in question are Stun, Bind, and Blind (ninjutsu).

Considering the above, spamming every JA/spell whenever it's up is overkill IMO. Not just in observations but also my experiences. But again, you usually make these judgements according to the situation. There's no static way to do something for an entire fight; the situation is always changing. Like, in the beginning of the fight I'll usually start off with most spells/JAs if not all, but in the middle with hate balanced correctly (this is key of course) I'll rotate just the necessary JAs/spells to maintain hate and balance. I'm also a believer in a hate cap, if that can attest at all to what I'm saying. The evidence of it existing far outweighs the evidence (if any?) against it IMO.

As a side note on that topic, other good spells for hate include Sleep (general belief is it's not wise to use on mobs you might want to sleep, because of building resistance), and any one of the Absorb spells. I often toss those in on a cycle if I want to generate more hate. Even minor stuff like Aspir/Drain in enmity gear helps.

Also, max MP doesn't really matter at all. I'm always getting bullshitted over my whopping like 79-120 MP on NIN/DRK, but the reality is the max MP doesn't make much of a difference. Just refresh alone will give you MP faster than you lose it to maintain hate most of the time. I also think Ethernal is kind of useless for NIN; the damage you'd have to take to get a worthwhile amount of MP would far outweigh the hate generated from that MP in my experiences. It's not like PLD where you'll get hit for 300 damage, cure it all back, and get more hate... Getting hit for 300 damage will give you one Stun, which isn't worth the hate/MP lost for the 300 damage taken in my opinion.

In addition, I just plain don't find myself taking much damage at all most of the time. I don't mean to boast or be cocky in any way at all (and I hate to sound it), but between mobs like Tiamat hitting for 1-5 damage with normal buffs/gear (and even at 25 damage the MP recovered is still 0) 90% of the time, and then him and other mobs like Ultima/Omega/Cerberus/Jailers/etc that rarely even get past Utsesumi timers... It doesn't leave much room for an ethernal to come in use. Even when I do get hit occasionally, it's normally in the 100-200 damage range which doesn't really help. Regardless, as I said I don't have MP problems anyway.

Then, I do equip haste gear for Ni and Stun. The reason why for Ni should go without saying. But, Stun is the only spell I'll always try to use the second it's ready, and unless you're doing that with the other spells there's no reason to use Haste gear with them. Using less enmity to shave off 2-3 seconds on a spell when you use it 5-10 seconds after it's ready most of the time is just a complete waste. Stun is always used regardless not just because of the hate, but because of obvious reasons like stunning TP attacks/making it easier to tank. Don't get me wrong though, if you actually are using Bind/Sleep/Blind/whatever the second it's ready 95% or more of the time then Haste gear all the way, but otherwise it's just a waste IMO.

And yeah, I don't even remember the last time there was actually a serious problem with tanks blinking at an HNM. Hearing that makes me feel like I'm back in 2005 or something to be honest, people joke about it now but it's long lost as a serious concern/problem. Anyway, to continue as I said I don't normally take much damage, and if I'm not taking damage there's no real reason to rush into casting something on me that blinking would folly. Regardless, it takes less than one second to /ma Stun for a situation you don't want to blink but still want to stun.

That's kind of a 'quick summary' of my opinions on it, but as I said from the start it differs from person to person.. And in the end, it really doesn't matter if you nitpick it to your own personal preferences/opinions, it's still a really effective tank as long as you know what you're doing.

[Kaeko]

Not to derail this but, I also agree there is a sort of Hate Cap due to how hate works. I think that hate gain is the same for each action no matter how often you use it (ie. stun doesn't give more or less hate in any situation over another), but hate loss is dependent on your current level of hate. Something like the more hate you currently have, the faster hate sheds on you.

I say this because anyone who's watched a NIN/DRK tank a lot will see that when they use LR+SE, their hate spikes up instantly, but it wears pretty quickly and the other NIN/DRK actually catches up in hate surprisingly easily. I believe this is because when you spike your hate that high, your hate decay increases and pushes it back down quickly. If you think about this concept, this is really why NIN/DRK and RDM/NIN work - spamming high hate spells repeatedly nonstop eventually equalibrates your hate (rate of hate gain = rate of hate decay).

A good example of how you can use this to your advantage is as a BLM on Fafnir. We typically use NIN/DRK tanks with a bunch of BLMs (yes, very creative I know). NIN/DRK will basically establish some equalibrium hate level and the BLMs, instead of trying to stay below it, actually try to go above it. BLM can easily take hate on a NIN/DRK on Fafnir with 1200 shots, but NIN/DRK spams hate and can maintain a higher level of hate equalibrium in the long run. When I take hate on purpose as a BLM, I know that the NIN/DRK will get it back by the time it takes 3 swings at me (2 blinks and a stoneskin). The key is just realizing how much damage you can do so that the NIN can get it back in 2-3 swings. Instead of trying hard to stay below the hate line, by not being afraid to surpass it (knowing that the hate decay will go up and just shoot you back down below that of the NIN/DRK in 3 swings), the kill speed goes up considerably. What limits a BLM on most HNM fights is hate and the fear of dying, not MP; by understanding how hate and hate decay works (in conjunction with a decent -% damage standing setup), you can really up the damage output for BLM on these fights (making this job even more unfair).