Brawl Discussion Thread

[Kimomo]

ITT: Talk about Brawl. I THINK no one posted a general discussion thread for this game yet, oh well, if there is already, feel free to remove this post.

Anyway, I read that "Ice Climbers Discussion" thread and was impressed by the teamwork Popo and Nana can do, especially the chain grabbing, the video posted in there was also helpful because I now have the timing down for both the chain grabbing/combo the player performs.

My only question is, after playing Melee, I haven't figured out how to jump and drop down fast yet, like what they do in the video, can someone help me out?

Thanks.

GO!

[BRP]

On my way to General Discussion to make a "General Discussion Thread"...

But first I'll help by saying it's pretty much the same as Melee: Hold down after the peak of your jump.

[Kimomo]

Hmm, I think I did that, it just seems like I'm not dropping fast enough like the people in the video. I noticed that when Lucas jumps, his "second jump" sound goes off and he just falls straight down fast.

Does it matter whether you short-hop or jump?

[BRP]

Uh... it shouldn't.

[Kimomo]

Hmm, thanks, I guess I've been doing it correctly this whole time, it just didn't feel like I was.

Still, I need to have faster hand movements like the expert players out there, they make their games so fast paced while mine takes just as long.

[Ryko]

you can fast fall out of a short hop or a full hop, or a double jump, or just getting your ass launched into the air, just tap down once while falling at all.

[PeaceNLove]

Just saw this subforum - has anyone discussed how much this game sucks in comparison to melee?

[Thulius]

Just saw this subforum - has anyone discussed how much this game sucks in comparison to melee?

Oh god.

[PeaceNLove]

I hope I haven't hit a sour note. I'm strictly talking competitively. Well that and the crap online play.

[Ryko]

The game doesnt require the same tech skill that melee did but some characters do have a very melee feel to them in terms of followups and comboability even with lacking hitstun (squirtle, diddy kong, metaknight, and marth). It's not a bad game though, even "compared to melee".

[Akiyama]

There need to be more cakes in Brawl. I feel it's lacking.

[PeaceNLove]

The game doesnt require the same tech skill that melee did but some characters do have a very melee feel to them in terms of followups and comboability even with lacking hitstun (squirtle, diddy kong, metaknight, and marth). It's not a bad game though, even "compared to melee".

Exactly, gameplay is really dumbed down to the point where skill with movement, comboing, mindgames, and overall mastery of a character is replaced by simply waiting for your opponent to make a mistake and reacting. As for Melee-esque combos, how many Ken combos is Marth pulling off now, or how many over+B to knees is Captain Falcon hitting? Sure, some characters needed to be buffed from melee, but instead it's like everyone was nerfed down to a point of equality. "Glitches" like wavedashing and crouch-cancelling only added that much more depth to the game and a higher level of skill to achieve. Much like BXRs and double-shotting in Halo 2, they speed up gameplay and make it much more enjoyable to watch. In fact, the transition from Melee to Brawl is a lot like that of Halo 2 to Halo 3 in terms of slower, dumbed down gameplay, and I could write a whole essay on that but I digress. You don't even have to "sweet spot" your recoveries anymore either; the game automatically does it for you...

And online play, with horrible startup lag on every move is just unbearable and unacceptable. It's fun to run little these little online tourneys that don't mean much, but past that, this crap is just unacceptable for competition. And I just know one of the main reasons they removed L-cancelling, one of the key skills that separated decent from good in SSB and SSBM, is because some online match server wouldn't be able to register the button press in time to run it back out to the game and cancel some aerial's lag. Gameplay was slowed down and made more floaty for more fluid online play as well. Nintendo: if you're gonna take away so much depth from the game, at least make the online play bearable. Good job delaying the game months to make some cutscenes for a mundane single player campaign, too.

Sorry for the rant, which most of you will likely disagree with or ignore, but I see you guys running tourneys and no one complaining about the competitiveness of the game or the sub par online experience. I also hate how my favorite games are becoming less fun to both play and watch competitively (Halo, Smash) because of slower-paced sequels. I think I've covered most of what I wanted to, but I'll leave two videos of competitive play to further my point:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=eQf1lWY0yHw - Two of the best Falcos from SSBM in a friendly match at some tournament. If you don't know much about SSBM you probably can't even follow what's being pulled off.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ior-Oxe_jU - I just typed in SSBB match and picked the first result. Filled with Zelda teleporting around and a final smash that doesn't even kill Ness.

[Chreman]

I very much agree with your sentiment concerning waiting for your opponent to make a mistake. . . One of my good friends is trying to push brawl on me, but he just doesn't understand how un-fun playing no-items, no-random stages in a one on one showdown where any move I make gets countered and leaves me worse off. Seems kinda strange that the game punishes you for trying to play stylishly while rewarding you for a reactive game.

I guess it's the whole casual vs. hardcore issue that comes up in the mmo world constantly. . . Brawl as a casual fun game is miles better than the power-gamer-esque bottom-line style everyone tries to put on it.

Maybe I just suck, but I don't see how you can pull any enjoyment from this game through the numbercrunching gameplay everyone seems to aspire to.

[Elcura]

Yes, Brawl isn't as competitive as Melee is. But given time it might be, in the first place Sakurai is kinda like a gaming communist. He wants everyone to have fun and not feel like a loser (which is retarded, he embodies Nintendo perfectly, trying to coddle people unnecessarily). So he took out a lot of the advanced techs and made it overall more casual friendly.

But that's because people are trying to find things with the same mindset as Melee, people aren't exactly looking at things in context as they simply compare it to another game that has had 7 years of development.

Lag is bad, but Nintendo was never good at online stuff really. Still, including it kinda ensures that the average skill level of Brawl players is above that of Melee players.

And if you think somethings in Melee didn't need to get changed then damn. Some of the shit you could pull in Melee was ridiculous. Not only that, tournements were a bore to watch with the same characters fighting the other same characters.

All in all, you'll get a lot of "tournyfag" replies, which I think isn't entirely unwarrented. At least now I know why people say such things.

[Thulius]

I never liked watching tournament-level Melee games. Regardless, I agree that brawl rewards defensive play far too much. I still think it's a bit early to compare the two competitively though, Melee certainly didn't become what it is in two months.

[Ryko]

I never liked watching tournament-level Melee games. Regardless, I agree that brawl rewards defensive play far too much. I still think it's a bit early to compare the two competitively though, Melee certainly didn't become what it is in two months.

Basically this. A ken combo going off in brawl isn't entirely out of the question but is left to how your opponent DIs or reacts. In some cases thul can hit me with the full 6 hits of his lucario's combo, in others he only gets the first 2 in and gets rolled out of or grabbed for it. As for the game rewarding campy playstyle, it's sad but true. There's almost no reason to be the first one to throw out a move or chase unless the move has enough range and/or speed to give you an opening to feint someone (Ike's nair/fair, marth's nair/fair, projectiles in general, luigi's tornado, neutral A's, mortar slides, and things like diddy's dash attack come to mind) or kind of beat them out of their air dodge (falcon is actually still very good in the air just admittedly not as maniacal as he used to be, it's still very awesome to see someone pull off a knee into falcon punch though or hell just a knee itself, squirtle, diddy kong, lucario, sheik, and a few others) but some characters still have incredible offensive gameplay, including the one that was flat out banned in melee (Ice climbers are absolutely brutal). As for the auto sweetspot complaints, edge guarding is still more than possible and edgehogging/mindgames still exists so I honestly don't get those.

I've seen good brawl play that wasn't just camping, and sometimes watching someone get past it is in of itself very impressive to watch or do but it's all a matter of when you're in the mood to watch it or play it. For the last week or so I've been so mindless in brawl because my mind hasn't really been into it so my ability to chase or feint people has really gone out the window but I generally mindgame a ton (with ike you sort of have to or you're not hitting anyone even with good spacing) so when I'm into it it's usually np.

[Metah]

Yes, Brawl isn't as competitive as Melee is. But given time it might be, in the first place Sakurai is kinda like a gaming communist. He wants everyone to have fun and not feel like a loser (which is retarded, he embodies Nintendo perfectly, trying to coddle people unnecessarily). So he took out a lot of the advanced techs and made it overall more casual friendly.

Because the purpose of a game is to have fun? Good God man.

[Elcura]

Yes, Brawl isn't as competitive as Melee is. But given time it might be, in the first place Sakurai is kinda like a gaming communist. He wants everyone to have fun and not feel like a loser (which is retarded, he embodies Nintendo perfectly, trying to coddle people unnecessarily). So he took out a lot of the advanced techs and made it overall more casual friendly.

Because the purpose of a game is to have fun? Good God man.

I worded it wrong, but trying to make a game where everyone feels like a 'winner' is a sure recipe for disaster. It's impossible and the result is something that is easier and slower for the crowds of ADD gamers who can't wait 5 seconds to learn something new (I've met lots of people who said certain characters suck because they were jesus with them after playing for a match).

[PeaceNLove]

Ken combo was probably a bad example because of Marth's nerfed spike. In Melee you could hit with the bottom 3/4ths of the sword and spike, and now you have to get an actual tipper. Speaking of tippers, I miss the BOOM noise too - now we get a bunch of hit frames and a lame Street Fighter sound effect to signify a tipper ! But I could name plenty of other bread and butter combos (Fox's up throw to up air comes to mind) that are nerfed by the game itself and the lack of hit stun after moves.

As for mindgames... most of it resides in reading your opponent and baiting a mistake that you can capitalize on, which is great at high levels of play, but a lot of mindgaming is just gone. With auto sweet spotting, you don't even have to think about recoveries, not to mention some skill is lost with wall-teching an edgeguard. On Fox/Falco, I used to have to think about my recoveries and try to fake out an opponent with a cancelled illusion, or if I was below the ledge I could either try and sweet spot an up+B, or Firefox straight upwards to avoid an edgeguard and fast fall DI into the ledge to avoid an edgehog. Now I can just head straight for the ledge with any character and gain invincibility frames with 0 thought process. I guess Sakurai didn't want kids complaining about edgeguarding.

Also dash dancing (which isn't completely out but for mindgames sake is useless) and wavedashing provided huge mindgames opportunities as well as a means to combat the roll. You can charge your opponent with invincible frames after a respawn with 100% confidence that he's just gonna roll behind you in Brawl, but you can't do anything about it. Wavedashing killed the roll by allowing you to change directions quickly and chase it and punish the final vulnerable frames, not to mention the skill and mindgames involved with tech chasing.

[BRP]

Yes, Brawl isn't as competitive as Melee is. But given time it might be, in the first place Sakurai is kinda like a gaming communist. He wants everyone to have fun and not feel like a loser (which is retarded, he embodies Nintendo perfectly, trying to coddle people unnecessarily). So he took out a lot of the advanced techs and made it overall more casual friendly.

Because the purpose of a game is to have fun? Good God man.

Everyone has different definition of fun. Why not just take out scores and winners in the first place right?