Counter effect from Seigan + Third Eye

[MaachaQ]

I was helping my husband get his SAM to 37 finally (he'd been putting it off for a long time because of crappy pts he;d had near that lvl), and we noticed something really weird... On the Wiki site it says Counter should kick in at a rather low percentage (2-5%), but he was countering multiple times every fight... I took a bunch of screenshots, here are just a few. He was in a pt with our 3rd account character (they were 36 MNK and SAM at the time) and I was PLing as WHM.

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z.../counter-3.png

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z.../counter-2.png

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z.../counter-1.png

He didn't have any outstanding gear for that lvl, nothing that would have some hidden effect of boosting the counter rate. He was wearing a Cassie earring for a while, but the counters continued even after he took it off, so he knew it wasn't from that.

Just wondering if this kind of counter rate is normal...

[Nameless]

wiki is wrong, the counter rate is at the least 25% from my experience. The most obvious experience is that in campaign, the wolf type boss used hundred fist and I had hate. So I popped seigan 3rd eye and I countered its attack to a point that it looked like I had hundred fist instead. It has a very very high rate of procing. At least for me it is.

[Khajit]

I vauguely think i remember hearing rukeshin say that the counter rate was highest when you activated third eye and went down as the seconds go by. EG. pop 3rd eye and get attacked immediately= 20 billion anticipates/counters if you get attacked by multiple enemies. pop 3rd eye and dont get attacked until a few seconds before it wears off= not nearly as many counter/anticipates per second.

[Epical]

wiki is wrong, the counter rate is at the least 25% from my experience. The most obvious experience is that in campaign, the wolf type boss used hundred fist and I had hate. So I popped seigan 3rd eye and I countered its attack to a point that it looked like I had hundred fist instead. It has a very very high rate of procing. At least for me it is.

Pretty sure that boss gives you his counterstance trait thingy.

[Drex]

I'm pretty sure 2-5% is a really low estimate, but I would guess 25% is way too high too. My eyeballing guess would be 10%ish. Remember that mandies attack twice as often as most other mobs, so more attacks = more chances to counter vs. them than vs. a regular mob.

[Mojo]

I get more than 2-5%(or whatever wiki says) on DRK/SAM. Those screenshots aren't too outlandish really, it's pretty high.

[Max™]

Chance to Counter is maybe a 3rd of the chance to keep an eye, and chance to keep an eye goes down the longer you've had TE up, least that's how it feels to myself, Ruke, and everyone I've talked too.

Shame noone but me noticed the phantom counter nerf, used to extend the total TE's you got, so 3 eyes and 2 or 3 counters was normal, now it's 3 eyes, or 2 eyes and a counter.

[Indalecia]

I'd say 25% for sam, 10-15% for /sam.

[RKenshin]

I believe it to be 10-15%, based on my experiences and a small handful of parses (I usually have defensive parse stats off).

I vauguely think i remember hearing rukeshin say that the counter rate was highest when you activated third eye and went down as the seconds go by. EG. pop 3rd eye and get attacked immediately= 20 billion anticipates/counters if you get attacked by multiple enemies. pop 3rd eye and dont get attacked until a few seconds before it wears off= not nearly as many counter/anticipates per second.

Not quite, although close. I don't think you ever have a higher chance to counter than to anticipate (only possible exception being with AF2 legs? I'm not sure), I think it's the same chance always. For example, an 85-90% chance to anticipate and a 10-15% chance to instead counter.

What does increase though, is the sooner after you use it the higher the chances are of continually anticipate/countering.

[Kirschy]

I lvled SAM from 37->75 in a duo setting /w outside healing where I was main tank the whole time. For a while my parser was picking up the counter rate fine, and it was recording about 10-15% with an anticipate rate around 45%. I think if you calculate the counter rate while third eye is active and you take a normal melee hit, the rate probably is close 20-25%. Because third eye won't be on 100% and you can't counter TP moves, the counter rate appears much lower.

[Max™]

Yeah, that did look weird after I read it again.

Draw a graph, vertical is chance of getting another anticipate, horizontal is time after using TE, it feels to me like it wouldn't be a straight decrease with time, but rather that inward curve shape who's name escapes me, where it starts out very high and steep, then slows around 10-15 seconds, and tapers out so you have virtually no chance of a 28~29 second eye giving another one.

http://i341.photobucket.com/albums/o...newgraph-1.jpg

Like that kinda.

[Ruiner]

THE FUCK THAT GRAPH IS UPSIDE DOWN

[Drex]

You just blew my mind

[Max™]

lol, sorry, I had edited it in paint and cut it off, but apparently that didn't take though the flipping did...

Just grabbed one with the curve I had in mind, which was upside down/backwards from how I needed it to be.

[Kkel]

Pretty sure that boss gives you his counterstance trait thingy.

This is also true, Alpha Gnole Anders "Cacophony" has the unique side effect of bestowing the people infront of him with Haste and Counterstance. Or at least it used to, i haven't fought him in a while. I've experienced the same situation though as an above poster, SAM/DNC with Soboro, Seigan, 3rd Eye + Haste and Counterstance. It's sick, you never stop swinging.

I'm sure the intention was to provide the people infront of him with the Def. Down of Counterstance and himself with loads of TP from the Haste effect so he could just Nox Blast everyone into the ground, but it certainly seems like an assbackwards way of doing it.

[Max™]

Pretty sure that Cacophony effect depends on the moon phase, when its between 50% waning and 50% waxing it gives us counter/haste, and 50% waxing > 50% waning gives himself and his Gnoles the effect.

I'd like to get someone to haste me up and heal me, War/Mnk, then go full haste, fort axe, retaliation, and get like 10 of the white boyahda mandies on me and laugh as they beat themselves to death against my gaxe.

Was helping some friends with Alky, and noticed the Gigas gave me parrying skillups nicely, so I hung out War/Dnc after they left.

Had a DC Mnk, EP War, and EP Dire Bat on me, and by the time I killed the Mnk I was fighting, the bat was dead from retaliates, and the War was over half dead.

It's amazingly fun watching when I hit > retaliate > double > three retaliates in a row > hit > retaliate two attacks at once and animation glitch > hit, etc.

[Samot]

Due to anecdotal evidence my belief is that, under the influence of seigan, counters are actually "enhanced parrys" (similar to Saotome Haidate's effect) and that your parry skill increases your chance of countering.

The reason i believe this, is due to a situation where i was using my second character to pl myself and a friend of mine at the same time (seperate parties) After a while, he asked, "why do you counter so much more than i do?" given we were the same level and were wearing mostly the same gear, attacking the same type of monsters, the only reason i could think of was parrying skill, which was drastically lower on his character vs mine.

obviously this is circumstantial evidence, but its a reasonable theory, if someone wants to test it, it might be interesting.

[solsovly]

Level difference seems to be a factor as well. I tend to counter much more often when fighting EP than T+ (but I'm only a 60 sam).

[Kirschy]

I've played DRK/SAM a bunch with 200 Parrying skill, vs my SAM which has 268+ parry skill. I've noticed no difference in counter rate between the two. I do think, as with MNK countering, accuracy is an issue.

[RKenshin]

Level difference seems to be a factor as well. I tend to counter much more often when fighting EP than T+ (but I'm only a 60 sam).

As Kirschy said, countering is probably also effected by accuracy for seigan. In which case, you would likely counter more on EP mobs than on T+.