Ret is broken

[Ishido]

And I can't wait for mine to hit 70 (currently 67).

Was doing BGs for 2 hours today and I never had a game where there were less than 3 ret paladins on the opposing team. Was playing moonkin and with offspec gear I have 162 resil, and apparently moonkins are giant flashing beacons that say "kill me."

[EternityEnd]

You're joking? Ret is gimp DPS at 80, and all the nerfs aren't even implemented yet.

[Foof]

They're amazingly OP at 70 right now though. I've been killed plenty by S2 paladins before stun wears off in tanking gear. They've already hotfixed them once...it's pretty stupid how much damage even terrible geared paladins can put out.

[Ramor]

They're amazingly OP at 70 right now though. I've been killed plenty by S2 paladins before stun wears off in tanking gear. They've already hotfixed them once...it's pretty stupid how much damage even terrible geared paladins can put out.

this ^

although I suppose the majority of people really don't know how they are at 80 (myself included) but right now there's some cereal bullshit goin on.

[EternityEnd]

You know how every other class gets ability upgrades for scaling 70 -> 80? Yeah, they don't. They are gimp at 80, and under-perform. You can't say they're OP right now, a month before WotLK goes live and everyone is 80. These changes were made FOR 80. Not for the month before WotLK.

[Correction]

You think there won't be changes when WotLK launches? :D

[Ramor]

I'm confused as to why I can't say they're OP right now, because they are OP...right now

[Krandor]

Pretty much every non Warlock DPS is "OP" right now, Ret Paladins are simply more burst damage focused then the other classes, which leads to all the crying about them of late in regards to PvP.

[Demetrius*]

so what's the problem with rets scaling at 80? where do their problems stem from? I was really looking forward to playing prot then switching to ret as a dual spec when necessary. i guess i may have to start looking into holy? D:

[Tomino]

it's bad naws they are gimp at 80 but still the Retribution tree was fixed for the best, imho.
the class now has a sense and coerence, being a 2hander dps in plate curing/buffing with no terrible mana issues. and hooray for Repetance for CC in istance

[fantasticdan]

You're joking? Ret is gimp DPS at 80, and all the nerfs aren't even implemented yet.

This guy is full of shit. Raid buffed ret DPS is higher than mages and warlocks at 80, which isn't exactly balanced when you consider the utility a ret pally brings. However, most people here are talking at pvp, where it's very clearly unbalanced at both 70 and 80. Hopefully the incoming burst damage nerfs will address this.

[Bweigelt]

This guy is full of shit. Raid buffed ret DPS is higher than mages and warlocks at 80, which isn't exactly balanced when you consider the utility a ret pally brings. However, most people here are talking at pvp, where it's very clearly unbalanced at both 70 and 80. Hopefully the incoming burst damage nerfs will address this.

While you're exageratting quite a bit, ret pally dps is fine at 80.

[fantasticdan]

While you're exageratting quite a bit, ret pally dps is fine at 80.

In what way? Were the mathcraft, and the WWS naxx stats I've seen all wrong?

[Dezzimal]

In what way? Were the mathcraft, and the WWS naxx stats I've seen all wrong?

Link some of those WWS. Currently at level 70, ret paladins don't gain anything towards their pve dps from 70 to 80. They do regular dps currently, anywhere between 2800-3200 on raid bosses in THE BEST gear, which is right in line with other classes wearing THE BEST gear.

70 - http://wowwebstats.com/ztqq1zv3h1lhi?s=85255-113861
Same Yamamoto at 80 - http://dezzimal.quotaless.com/naxx/s...874/index.html

The fights are both dps races, so really no difference between the two. Their PvE dps is fine, but their ability to have all of their instants ready directly after they stun someone is a flawed PvP mechanic.

[Foof]

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3...3370421gs3.jpg

[fantasticdan]

Link some of those WWS. Currently at level 70, ret paladins don't gain anything towards their pve dps from 70 to 80. They do regular dps currently, anywhere between 2800-3200 on raid bosses in THE BEST gear, which is right in line with other classes wearing THE BEST gear.

70 - http://wowwebstats.com/ztqq1zv3h1lhi?s=85255-113861
Same Yamamoto at 80 - http://dezzimal.quotaless.com/naxx/s...874/index.html

The fights are both dps races, so really no difference between the two. Their PvE dps is fine, but their ability to have all of their instants ready directly after they stun someone is a flawed PvP mechanic.

That IS the problem, and you're right that it's the same at 70 as it is at 80(my warlock is getting outdpsed by paladins with worse gear on live). Ret paladins bring a very high amount of utility to a raid compared to pure dps specs; replenishment, JoW, a blessing, instant flash heals, minor raid healing from divine storm, BoP, crit+3% debuff, +2% damage buff, +3% haste buff, etc. Compare that to assassination rogues (the new pve spec), who bring, just the +3% crit debuff. Is it balanced for those two classes to do roughly the same dps? I would say no.

Maybe not much of a problem in 25mans since you will cap out on utility easily, but in 10 mans? Let's say you have a 10 man raid looking for 1 dps, the raid doesn't already contain a dps warrior, ret paladin, or rogue, and you already have a warrior tank for sunders. You have three similarly geared players of the above three classes to fill that spot. Which one is going to get that slot every time? Keep in mind, even if the rogue or warriors dps with the same buffs/debuffs is slightly higher, the paladins personal dps will probably be higher in this case, since if you bring the rogue or warrior, they won't have those pally buffs. Mages and warlocks are going to run into the same problem with moonkins.

[Dezzimal]

10 man raids are not in any way tuned to where you absolutely need to bring any one class outside of the 3 major archetypes and maaaaaaaaaybe a class with replenishment. I see no problem with ret paladins doing competitve dps, but if they're ahead by a consistent margin then there is a problem.

[Boyiee]

Retribution

* Judgement of Command Holy damage reduced from 56% to 45%.
* Blessing of Might (Rank 8 ) and Greater Blessing of Might (Rank 3) now increase AP by 306. (Up from 305)
* Seal of Corruption now deals [ 15% of AP + 8.8% of Spell Power ] additional holy damage over 15 seconds. (Down from [ 19.2% of AP + 9.6% of Spell Power ])
* Seal of Corruption now deals [ 14% of AP + 22% of Spell Power + 1 ] Holy damage. (Down from [ 17.5% of AP + 28% of Spell Power + 1 ])
* Seal of the Martyr now make all your melee attacks deal [ 22% of mw ] to [ 22% of MW ]. (Down from [ 28% of mw ] to [ 28% of MW ])
* Seal of the Martyr now deals [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 36% of mw ] to [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 36% of MW ] Holy Damage when unleashed. (Old - [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 25% of mw ] to [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 25% of MW ] Holy damage)
* Seal of Blood now make all your melee attacks deal [ 22% of mw ] to [ 22% of MW ]. (Down from [ 28% of mw ] to [ 28% of MW ])
* Seal of Blood now deals [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 36% of mw ] to [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 36% of MW ] Holy Damage when unleashed. (Old - [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 25% of mw ] to [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 25% of MW ] Holy damage)
* Seal of Vengeance now deals [ 15% of AP + 8.8% of Spell Power ] additional Holy damage over 15 sec. (Down from [ 19.2% of AP + 9.6% of Spell Power ])
* Seal of Vengeance now deals [ 14% of AP + 22% of Spell Power + 1 ] Holy damage. (Down from [ 17.5% of AP + 28% of Spell Power + 1 ])
* Judgement of Wisdom now restores 1% of the attacker's maximum mana. (Down from 2%)
* Judgement of Light now has a chance to heal the attacker for [ 10% of AP + 10% of Spell Power ]. (Down from [ 18% of AP + 18% of Spell Power ])


Talents
Retribution

* Divine Storm doesn't deal Holy damage anymore. Now heals up to 3 party or raid members for 25% of the damage caused. (Up from 20%)
* Righteous Vengeance changed to - When your Judgement and Divine Storm spells deal a critical strike, your target will take 8/16/24/32/40% additional damage over 8 sec.
* The Art of War now increases the damage of Judgement, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm by 5/10%. (Old - Increased critical strike damage only, by 10/20%)
* Judgement of the Wise now grants the paladin 15% of his base mana. (Down from 33%)
* Seal of Command now deals [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 24% of mw ] to [ 16% of AP + 25% of Spell Power + 24% of MW ] Holy damage. (Down from [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 30% of mw ] to [ 20% of AP + 32% of Spell Power + 30% of MW ])


---Hammer of Wrath is now only usable on enemies that have 20% health or less (Down from 35%). The tooltip of the spell wasn't changed and it might be a bug.

---Glyph of Crusader Strike - Reduces the mana cost of your Crusader Strike ability by 20%. (Old - Your Crusader strike deals 20% more damage when your target is incapacitated or stunned.)

lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllllllll

[Saphirea]

guess I'm back to either one of the two... lolret or flash of light spam.

[Ishido]

Those changes hardly make it lolret.