Question about a crit hit build vs haste build

[Mazurat]

Not sure if this is the right forum for this question but here goes.

How would a crit hit build compare to a haste build in terms of overall effectiveness.

Can someone good at math compare these two Warrior builds. This is based on the bird camp with their base agi @ 67 and 50+ above that dex will hit the crit cap.

Crit
Main: Byakko's
Sub: Pole Grip
Ammo: Bomblet
Head: Askar
Neck: Peacock
Ear1: Brutal
Ear2: Adroit
Body: Haub +1
Hands: Hachiryu
Ring1: Rajas
Ring2: Thunder
Back: Cuchulains
Waist: Swift
Legs: Byakko's
Feet: Aurum

Relevant stats: +51 Dex, +15% Haste, +46 Acc, +16 Str, +23 Att, +8 DA
Sidenote: This would give an Elvaan War/Sam a total of 65+51 = 116 Dex
(one short of exactly 50 Dex above a Greater Colibri's 67 Agi although swapping subs to nin would give you that extra dex) Other races could swap out some pieces and get the same results.

Cookie cutter build

Main: Byakko's
Sub: Pole Grip
Ammo: Bomblet
Head: Turban
Neck: Peacock
Ear1: Brutal
Ear2: Assault
Body: Haub +1
Hands: Dusk
Ring1: Rajas
Ring2: Snipers
Back: Foragers
Waist: Swift
Legs: Byakko's
Feet: Aurum

Relevent stats: Acc +43, Att +48, Haste +19%, +26 Dex, +11 Str, Double Attack +8%

I want someone more knowledgable than me to really take an indepth look at these gear sets. Not just a quick peek then say "lolnohastefail"

[Mazurat]

Basically what I want to know is will the crit hit build stand a chance at the bird camp or will it get destroyed by the haste build.

[Konda]

so 4% haste vs capped crit rate and a little more Acc?

Not sure if you could maths craft it, Parsing might be the best way to get your answer.

[ringthree]

Don't build your gear around birds.

[hagun]

What's wrong with a build that targets birds? Do you realize that 60%+ of all merit PT are on birds? God forbid the guy should be prepared.

[Argettio]

Don't build your gear around birds.

Why not?

Thats like telling a BLM not to gear for pudidngs.

As long as he understands that the set he is building is limited to 1 mob and he should have other sets for different mobs.

[Arximiro]

What's wrong with a build that targets birds? Do you realize that 60%+ of all merit PT are on birds? God forbid the guy should be prepared.

What's wrong is most people who build their gear around birds use the same builds for other shit and it's not a good practice.

[Esvedium]

What's wrong is most people who build their gear around birds use the same builds for other shit and it's not a good practice.

Doesn't mean that gearing for birds is a bad thing.

<if target="Greater Colibri">...

[Argettio]

What's wrong is most people who build their gear around birds use the same builds for other shit and it's not a good practice.

So basically you are saying gearing for bird is ok... but idiotic players aren't ok?

If so, we argree.

[ringthree]

So basically you are saying gearing for bird is ok... but idiotic players aren't ok?

If so, we argree.

There are two problems. First, gear doesn't matter on Greater Colibri. No matter how much people protest, you are going to cap out on Greater Colibri at around 25K an hour. I have tried this with many different people, with a wide variety of equipment and job variations. I know people will protest that they can get 40k an hour or something, but you just can't, sorry. And no, this number doesn't go much higher if you include Wivre.

Second, you learn nothing from birds that applies to the parts of the game where gear is important. The classic example is the SAM polearm build, which is great for Greater Colibri and almost nothing else in the game. If you want to learn what is good gear overall, then parse on the hard stuff, and forget about birds. Parsing birds tells you nothing about the rest of the game and if you try to take information from that parse you will be gimping yourself from the rest of the game.

There is a reason people like to XP on birds, and that is the same reason you should never gear yourself for birds. I wrote about this very subject on my blog recently: http://ringthree.blogspot.com/2009/0...-wildlife.html

[hagun]

facepalm.gif

You've got to be kidding me. Okay let's all go test out crit builds on AV and PW because that's the only place you can learn effect of Dex on a mob. It's impossible to gain any knowledge about a Dex build's effect vs haste on colibri.

[Eanae]

Middle birds caps around 30k/hr if you have a cor doing exp roll.

[isladar]

Moved to Standard.

[GavinBandura]

I'm sorry, but you can get upto around 32/33k an hour in a brd, cor party killing all birds and wivre. 25k is not the cap in a good party there.

[hagun]

ring obviously knows everything about FFXI so we don't need to test anything colibri. Blogs are almighty and all-knowing.

[Argettio]

[QUOTE=ringthree;2854718]Stuff[QUOTE]

Right we all know you need over 400acc to cap on birds.

Well all know even a full merited 2 handers has ~330 based accuracy (~280 from A+ skill merited and ~50 for dex)

With bad gear and no merits a 2handed DD will struggle to get over 50% hit rate, seriously I have seen people not get to 50%. 4 DDs with 50% hit rate will not make it to 25k/hr; they won't even make 15k/hr

While I agree you can relatively easily hit 22-27k (which I accept is about the best you will get out of the camp without bonus etc) it DOES require the DDs to have a concept of accuracy and how much they need to hit the damn birds, and I can tell you a lot of them don't.

You guys need to remember 80%+ of all people LFP @ 75 at any point in time are poorly merited and/or geared.

Sure if you have good gear and merits already, you can wear your normal set and it will work (probabily well enough to get to 25k).

But there are situation when even good DDs need to really think about what they are wearing against birds, the main one being 2 bard parties. With only 3 DD they all need to be pretty good to make more exp than 1 bard and 4 DD. Or making up for a leeching member (LS mate or whatever).

[ringthree]

Middle birds caps around 30k/hr if you have a cor doing exp roll.

I was not counting COR roll, just to be clear. Taking away COR roll you get around 28.5k. Take away rounding up and personal number inflation and you get the "around 25k" an hour.

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you on your number with COR. I think it pretty much proves my point, and we are in agreement.

Just to further clarify, my conditions for "around 25k" an hour were just signet for XP bonus without any additional COR roll or XP ring bonus.

I am also not suggesting that there is a hard cap at 25k an hour, I am just saying that there is a point at which you get highly diminishing returns on XP compared to gear/buff improvements. The beginning of these diminishing returns is a very low level of gear quality.

[ringthree]

facepalm.gif

You've got to be kidding me. Okay let's all go test out crit builds on AV and PW because that's the only place you can learn effect of Dex on a mob. It's impossible to gain any knowledge about a Dex build's effect vs haste on colibri.

I think you are missing the point, and you are trying to put words in my mouth. But this is the internet, so I guess that should be taken as a given.

I never said that you could not test the effect of DEX on crit on Colibri. In fact, it is one of the best places to test those factors because of the known quantities of those mobs.

That is not the question here. The question posed was about the difference a build for DEX or haste has on Greater Colibri, for which I suggest there is little because the number of mobs is a much higher limitation on XP gain and also parse numbers than gear. While I agree with almost everything that Argettio posts, I disagree in the level of gear that is necessary to maintain that 22-27k XP/hour range.

Killing Wivre does change the equation, and it is there that gear and other factors can cause a greater difference, but they also change the effect of gear choice, songs, etc. That said it is still not that much of an influence on XP gained, even if it is usually positive. On the other hand, a Polearm SAM that has reached the XP "cap" on birds and is forced to fight Wivre to keep a chain will be in a much worse position than a SAM that is using a Great Katana. So there are times when attempting to optimize for birds can actually be detrimental to XP per hour.

My two problems with people trying to gear for bird camps is that it has little substantive effect on the amount of XP gained and that it does not translate into other areas of the game where gear plays a much larger role in determining damage.

[ringthree]

Moved to Standard.

Maybe it's time to dump the Standard/Advanced distinction? Neither forum gets much action because a lot of BG posters have moved to General or play WoW.

I know Advanced was supposed to be the place where people could say anything but it's just turning into the same thing as Standard now.

*shrug* Not trying to run the board or anything, just making a suggestion.

[Starr]

There's nothing wrong with asking a question about meriting at birds or making a bird gear set at all, OP didn't say he wants a comparison for birds so he could use the same set on everything. To be constructive though a crit set on birds (DEX=119) would also cap Critical Hit Rate on Sea Puks, Wyverns, DRG and BST pets, Stabler's, mage Mamool and be very high on DRG mamool so it is not a fucking MASSIVE difference and irrelevant to them at all. Or you can be a fucking moron and act like NIN and THF mamools are the majority of fucking Mamool Ja Staging point or Nyzul Mamools, which is probably the response I am about to get.