Lich King ending lore discussion.

[Eaglestrike]

Does this count as advanced? Does it matter?

Anyway, I'll be discussing things starting with the ending cinematic from WotLK which has been posted on MMO-champion as of a little bit ago, so if you don't want spoilers, leave the thread.

Not much to say actually, just wanted to start this up and see what others thought. My only initial reaction is about two things: 1) This shit is going to come up again, lol and 2) It looks like this might be after Cataclysm or Emerald Dream, the Lich King is going to take a few years to completely recover/materialize/synergize/etc. first? Which also explains why it look Arthas so long to actually start doing shit again after WC3.

[Lordshin]

I disagree with this coming up again.

If you remember, Arthas was not able to "break" Bolvar. So, he most likely will not be corrupted by the crown as Arthas was therefore creating a "good" Lich King. Also Frostmourne looks like it gets destroyed so even less corruption there.

Blizzard seems to have enough lore backing this up so that there will never be a Wrath of the Lich King 2.

As for the the cutscene itself... WOW! SO epic, cant wait for the fight (if i ever get to do it that is) I'm sure there is more stuff before and after this CS that will be equally, if not more, epic than this :O.

IMO Blizz did an amazing job with the lore for this Expansion can't wait for Cataclysm.

[Lucavi]

One hell of a CS. Some people actually have the gall to say that WoW doesn't do a good job telling its story.

[Moosey]

They've always done a pretty good job with storytelling, though in the past you kind of had to dig for it.

This is definitely awesome though.

[Eaglestrike]

They've stated (somewhere) that they haven't completely explained the Ner'zhul story. My theory is that Arthas was somehow strong enough to keep Ner'zhul from completely taking over, but maybe he'll eventually be able to break Bolvar. I think the reason Blizzard has said the story isn't finalized is because he may come up later. With there being a new Lich King, which is basically a body merging with Ner'zhul's spirit, there may be a path for Ner'zhul to come back into power and become the Lich King.

And come on, if there's potential for more story, you really think they're going to throw it away? And if you bring the Lich King back somewhere, you can have him raise Arthas as one of the raid bosses, you know how much Blizzard likes doing that.

[Eanae]

In my opinion the final cutscene was a disappointment after Wrathgate. I was expecting something a lot more epic.

[Moosey]

They've stated (somewhere) that they haven't completely explained the Ner'zhul story. My theory is that Arthas was somehow strong enough to keep Ner'zhul from completely taking over, but maybe he'll eventually be able to break Bolvar. I think the reason Blizzard has said the story isn't finalized is because he may come up later. With there being a new Lich King, which is basically a body merging with Ner'zhul's spirit, there may be a path for Ner'zhul to come back into power and become the Lich King.

And come on, if there's potential for more story, you really think they're going to throw it away? And if you bring the Lich King back somewhere, you can have him raise Arthas as one of the raid bosses, you know how much Blizzard likes doing that.

Icecrown Citadel was merely a setback!


But yeah, when Bolvar puts the helm on, it definitely sounds like ner'zhul is speaking with him at that point.

[Correction]

I liked the cutscene plenty. Yes, not as epic as wrathgate, but good enough for an end of expansion boss. And this is only the cutscene; it's likely you'll get Sunwell-levels of epicness during the Lich King's descent onto the raid from the frozen throne as well as any interactions the Horde/Alliance heroes (among them Saurfang, Sylvanas, Muradin and Jaina) mid and post-boss fight. The cutscene is just a small fraction of that, whereas wrathgate was a start to finish display of what happened.

Yeah, loose ends. That's Blizzard's bread and butter. Remember Mal'Ganis is still alive? Yeah, that's something they can more fully explore come the next expansion. A Lich King prison no longer fortified by an expansionist tyrant holding an invincible runeblade? Sounds like a ripe target for reacquisition by the Nathrezim looking to restore Sargeras.

That said Blizzard love to leave loose ends to out-of-game content like comics and novelizations. Wouldn't surprise me to see a lot of that play out there, and see remnants pop up in Cata just like with what happened the last lore cycle leading up to the state of Northrend before we set foot in it in WoW.

[Lucavi]

The only thing I'm wondering is what happens to the undead we haven't killed yet. From a lore standpoint, we've sacked all of Arthas' main strongholds, and have killed hundreds of thousands of undead across the land. More still remains, though, as do people with the means to create more.

What happens to cultists that we haven't killed? Bolvar made it look like he's sealing himself up into an icy tomb, so does that mean that the forced link to the cultists is now shattered? Will we now have to hunt down a bunch of corrupted rogue necromancers?

From an in-game standpoint, I know this was all done so that we could continue to see the same undead running around that we always have. It wouldn't be possible to super-phase out every undead because we beat the game.

I just wonder what they'll do now that the Lich King seems to be taking a hefty back seat. Will Northrend start to heal, or will things merely remain the same?

[Siniroth]

Icecrown Citadel was merely a setback!

It'll eventually become an achievement, involving killing every raid boss who comes back ever

The only thing I'm wondering is what happens to the undead we haven't killed yet. From a lore standpoint, we've sacked all of Arthas' main strongholds, and have killed hundreds of thousands of undead across the land. More still remains, though, as do people with the means to create more.

What happens to cultists that we haven't killed? Bolvar made it look like he's sealing himself up into an icy tomb, so does that mean that the forced link to the cultists is now shattered? Will we now have to hunt down a bunch of corrupted rogue necromancers?

From an in-game standpoint, I know this was all done so that we could continue to see the same undead running around that we always have. It wouldn't be possible to super-phase out every undead because we beat the game.

I just wonder what they'll do now that the Lich King seems to be taking a hefty back seat. Will Northrend start to heal, or will things merely remain the same?

I think it's supposed to put forth the symbolism that he's sealing the scourge, they'll obviously still be dangerous, but I believe if he has control over all the scourge, it doesn't really matter if people can make more undead, he can sick the undead on the necros and make less

[Correction]

The only thing I'm wondering is what happens to the undead we haven't killed yet.

The Lich King was still able to fully control the Scourge even when he hadn't yet merged with Arthas, I'm sure whatever binds him to the Scourge breaks with Arthas' death but Bolvar's mind will keep the link from being completely severed. Mind you it was the initial attack on the incorporeal form of the Lich King that formed the Forsaken in the first place. His control is absolute but a fragile construct; it seems to require a mind strong enough to maintain it.

What happens to the undead we haven't killed yet? I guess we'll have to find out, there is precedent for breaking free of the control and retaining your mind.

[Lucavi]

I wonder what Sargeras and the Burning Legion thinks of this development. They lost control of the Lich King before, but now it seems that they have absolutely no chance to get him back.

I think that for their sake, its better that way. The Burning Legion doesn't employ the use of holy artifacts or the light itself, so they'd have a much harder time trying to kill the lich king's armies than us. The only one who could probably simply obliterate everything is Sargeras, though I wonder how he'd fare if his entire legion was turned against him through undeath.

[Izzy]

How are you guys watching this already? PTR or dat mining?

[Guitarman]

mmo-champion.com izzy.

still leaves alot of questions. saurfang is one of my favorite characters and to see him just walk away with no mention of him being in cata leaves me wondering.

nozordomu is still up to something, possibly controlling the infinite dragonflight, yet we got no resolution to that story arc. I hope the dragon-heavy cata will explain some of that.

as for bolvar, i'm guessing the key plot point blizzard will make about him being able to control the scourge is alexstraza's flame he's bathed in will help him keep the scourge in check.

Edit: Terenas has always had the most badass VA. Gives me chills.

[Kaylia]

mmo-champion.com izzy.

still leaves alot of questions. saurfang is one of my favorite characters and to see him just walk away with no mention of him being in cata leaves me wondering.

nozordomu is still up to something, possibly controlling the infinite dragonflight, yet we got no resolution to that story arc. I hope the dragon-heavy cata will explain some of that.

as for bolvar, i'm guessing the key plot point blizzard will make about him being able to control the scourge is alexstraza's flame he's bathed in will help him keep the scourge in check.

Edit: Terenas has always had the most badass VA. Gives me chills.

Don't forget Malganis who was pulling the rope behind Scarlet Crusade. He is definitively going to jump in at some point considering how much he hated Arthas, and how big the crusade is.


Demons race is going to come back sooner or later, they played such a huge part in Warcraft series, but nearly all of them are dead at this point.

[Lordshin]

I expect the fight and events leading up to the fight to be epic as well...
I mean the only characters we see in the cutscene are Arthas, Tirion and Bolvar so something must have happened to every one else.

I get goosebumps just thinking about it lol. Arthas is my favorite "villan" in any RPG so far so i can't wait to see what Blizz does with him

[Boyiee]

They kill him! Surprise!

[Plow]

They've stated (somewhere) that they haven't completely explained the Ner'zhul story. My theory is that Arthas was somehow strong enough to keep Ner'zhul from completely taking over, but maybe he'll eventually be able to break Bolvar. I think the reason Blizzard has said the story isn't finalized is because he may come up later. With there being a new Lich King, which is basically a body merging with Ner'zhul's spirit, there may be a path for Ner'zhul to come back into power and become the Lich King.

And come on, if there's potential for more story, you really think they're going to throw it away? And if you bring the Lich King back somewhere, you can have him raise Arthas as one of the raid bosses, you know how much Blizzard likes doing that.

A huge part of the point of the story up to now is that Arthas was *not* strong enough to prevent anything, despite being one of the strongest-willed heroes ever.

He literally went from "Must destroy all undead to save my people," to "Send my people at me... Frostmourne wants their souls."

As for if they'll leave it be... who knows. Here's what I'm seeing:

as for bolvar, i'm guessing the key plot point blizzard will make about him being able to control the scourge is alexstraza's flame he's bathed in will help him keep the scourge in check.

This seems to be a major point, especially with the "Sealed my fate" line. Essentially, Arthas tried to get both Saurfang and Bolvar. However, Bolvar was essentially already "undead"... but not by the power of necromancy or undeath, but by the power of life.

Arthas was "one of" the strongest. Bolvar basically *is* the strongest. He went down fighting the good fight, as (imo) one of the best heroes we've had. On top of that, he came back to life as basically a big flaming ball of life, the epitome of opposite to the Lich King and his basis in ice.


So yeah, you've got the guy that would not succumb to Lich King torture-- the kind that was used to turn NZ into the LK in the first place. A great paladin. Who happens to have been bathed in the flames of life to the point where it basically forms his body.


Further, a huge key to Arthas's position was in the shattering of the tomb. Arthas took up the helm *after* breaking the tomb to free the original LK. Bolvar takes the helm, becomes the LK... and freezes himself into the tomb before the transformation is complete.

Of course, the "go and never come back" thing... does basically leave a big fat hole for them to anytime go "oh yeah, someone went back. And they broke the prison again."

But basically, it seems to me that Bolvar is strong enough, and the right guy, to...

Balance the force.

/dramatic sunglasses



Anyway, something a little more direct to the cutscene:

Anyone else note Tirion is rockin Vis'kag? I'm guessing one of the big parts of the fight will be the massive impact of frostmourne and ashbringer, shattering both (and conveniently leaving some combined essence for shadowmourne).

I did also find it interesting that the cutscene is just them, and is in game as a full on AVI, so it's not like our characters are going to be randomly standing around. Seems quite likely that Tirion deals the final blow... perhaps whipping out ashbringer, starting the impact and telling everyone to gtfo (and then lolbubbling).

Will be kind of disappointing if we don't get to take screenshots on (what's left of) the frozen throne lol.

In my opinion the final cutscene was a disappointment after Wrathgate. I was expecting something a lot more epic.

I dunno, we'll have to see the fight. I'm sure there's going to be plenty going on throughout it.

Edit: Terenas has always had the most badass VA. Gives me chills.

Fuck yes. The only judgment I'm going to make before seeing the fight is that Arthas's death scene with him should have been much longer for way more drama.

[Norellicus]

The mystery of Varimathras' master remains yet untold as well. He answered to someone, we just don't know who. Detheroc and Mephistroth still remain among the nathrezim.

[Correction]

Final wing's voice files extracted. Spoilers ahoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdBFt4LZF0c