Nin neckpiece question

[ubermonkey]

Pretty simple, I'm currently using chiv chain, and I'm thinking of switching to specs (they cost about the same on my server). I'm wondering if the 2 acc is a better option than the 3str overall (the tp store is a wash since it doesn't touch my swings to 100). Currently my setup is pretty low on acc (or it certainly feels that way when I can't eat sushi), changing to specs would put me at 281 skill +35 acc tping.

Cheers for any advice/suggestions.

[Amastacia]

Eh, depends really.

If you're a fan of U/U, U/P, or another similar speed setup, the Chiv Chain is probably slightly better since over time it will most likely provide an increase to your fSTR, which is where quite a bit of the damage of speed katanas comes from.

If you use S/F, S/U, S/P, or another combo that focuses less on swing speed and more on damage per hit, Specs are generally going to be the better choice since there's less focus on raw number of hits landed in the shortest time frame and a missed hit hurts worse than potentially losing 1 fSTR.

Just my opinion, though.

[sleekmotorwurkz]

I use senji/perdu with breeze gorget for ws, chiv chain for tp.

[ringthree]

Can someone tell me how 26 delay difference, let alone 15 delay difference can seriously be used justify a difference in gear a NIN wears? And that is raw delay which doesn't consider the equally applied Dual Wield and Haste reductions in delay, which would close the gap even further, and that is before spells and songs.

S/P = 417
U/U = 402
U/P = 391

With 35% Dual Wield and 20% Haste (from gear) the numbers become the following (and here is where my math breaks down, I don't know when each are applied, but for that sake of argument I will apply Haste then DW to have the smallest amount of reduction, I think [double checked the order doesn't matter]).

S/P = 217
U/U = 209
U/P = 203

At this point you are defending changing gear (and I have even heard people making the claim that people should eat meat and switch to accuracy gear instead of haste gear) because of a difference of 14 delay at most and 6 delay at least.

And remember this is all before haste and songs, which will reduce the gap even further.

In this case, the delay reduction is still beneficial but I can not see it justifying changing gear one way or another.

[Amastacia]

Because it's likely going to be more than that small amount?

Most speed katana users tend to wear AF body, in my experience (probably more often than they should), and it's more common to see Senj users in Haubs/Togis/AF2/whatever. The old thing of picking an aspect and maximizing it, whether it be speed or damage per hit.

Not necessarily the smartest thing in the long run, I'll agree, but I've long since given up trying to point out why people aren't doing things the best way for any particular situation (it's partly opinion anyway), and instead make suggestions based on what's likely to happen regardless of what I say so they at least come out slightly ahead.

[ringthree]

Because it's likely going to be more than that small amount?

Most speed katana users tend to wear AF body, in my experience (probably more often than they should), and it's more common to see Senj users in Haubs/Togis/AF2/whatever. The old thing of picking an aspect and maximizing it, whether it be speed or damage per hit.

Not necessarily the smartest thing in the long run, I'll agree, but I've long since given up trying to point out why people aren't doing things the best way for any particular situation (it's partly opinion anyway), and instead make suggestions based on what's likely to happen regardless of what I say so they at least come out slightly ahead.

Actually, you have it backwards, the more haste you add the smaller the difference becomes, so in practice it will actually become less than that small amount of difference.

I only included the static haste/DW you get from equip and traits (just Suppa too, didn't even include AF body which I agree is pretty useless for both considering what you give up to use it). I did not include 15% Haste from the spell and even more from March. My point is that the difference in speed gets smaller and smaller with more and more haste, so the justification in changing gear to accommodate become less and less relevent. Essentially the higher your delay the more haste will reduce your delay. Lower starting delay will always end up with a lower adjusted delay, of course, but if the comparative difference is small enough, then changing gear to adjust for the tiny difference in delay is essentially a push, in that it would effect both set ups pretty much exactly the same.

If you start including the spells and songs in the calculation, I think you could even turn the argument on its head and make the argument that the delay difference becomes so small that Senj will actually come out on top because of the higher base damage and critical hit bonus, when compared to Unji with Perdu as off-hand for both.

This is all based on the idea that the off-hand is the Perdu Blade. I wouldn't make the argument that Senj is better than Unji with a Fudo in the off-hand but I would still make the argument that changing gear selection based on the delay difference would be negligible at best.

Honestly, I have to agree with you about what players think. I think people rely far too much on single parses they see other people do. Parses have so many problems its kind of ridiculous. They are good as general guides, but when people use them to justify the grand benefits of one set up over another I am always hesitant to believe because the conditions for most parses is far from a good test.

[Valyana]

Actually, you have it backwards, the more haste you add the smaller the difference becomes, so in practice it will actually become less than that small amount of difference.

Actually, you have it backwards. Unlike most other things, haste has increasing effect as you add more, as it is based on a % of the original weapon delay.

300 delay weapon = 60*60/300 = 12 swings/minute
5% haste: 300*0.95=285 delay:12.6 swings/minute (5.2% increase)
20% haste - 240 delay - 15 swings/minute
25% haste - 225 delay - 16 swings/minute - 6.7% increase

Going from 20 to 25% haste increases swings/minute more than going from 0 to 5% haste.

[Kiarax]

Actually, you have it backwards, the more haste you add the smaller the difference becomes, so in practice it will actually become less than that small amount of difference.

Actually, you have it backwards. Unlike most other things, haste has increasing effect as you add more, as it is based on a % of the original weapon delay.

300 delay weapon = 60*60/300 = 12 swings/minute
5% haste: 300*0.95=285 delay:12.6 swings/minute (5.2% increase)
20% haste - 240 delay - 15 swings/minute
25% haste - 225 delay - 16 swings/minute - 6.7% increase

Going from 20 to 25% haste increases swings/minute more than going from 0 to 5% haste.

ringthree meant haste starts to shorten the gap between higher delay and lower delay pairings. For example 400 delay vs 300 delay is a 100 delay difference, but if you apply 10% Haste to both, the delays become 360 and 270, a 90 delay difference.

[Amastacia]

Even if the physical number is smaller, the percent increase is not, which is the important part anyway. The difference between Unji/Perdu/AF and Senj/Perdu/Haub is more than 26 delay, and I believe the common line of thinking is that if you're building for speed, all out or nothing is the way to go.

Regardless, I'm not going to sit here and say that just because a lot of people do something one way, it means that way is right. I've just given up on "shit is situational" since too many people don't get that and never will. In my experience speed katana users tend towards AF and I recommend Chiv Chain on the assumption that even if I tell them it's not always the best choice, they're going to ignore me anyway, so they might as well end up slightly ahead. Likewise with Senj NINs, Haub, and Specs.

As with most things the real answer is "get a PCC" or "a little of column A, a little of column B" depending on how you look at it (and how deep your wallet is).

[Carnusty]

Personally I don't have a Perdu blade atm, so I'm a S/F user. I use Koga chainmail outside of Mire/Mt Zhayolm, because those places I have high damage/capped accuracy anyways, so I use AF1 body there. I used to use koga in those places as well, but with my acc doing the way it was, I saw getting an extra hit or two better than a bit more dmg :3

Also I have a PCC, sold my chiv chain ;3 for WS though I have a Breeze gorget, and that's giving me good numbars

[ringthree]

Actually, you have it backwards, the more haste you add the smaller the difference becomes, so in practice it will actually become less than that small amount of difference.

Actually, you have it backwards. Unlike most other things, haste has increasing effect as you add more, as it is based on a % of the original weapon delay.

300 delay weapon = 60*60/300 = 12 swings/minute
5% haste: 300*0.95=285 delay:12.6 swings/minute (5.2% increase)
20% haste - 240 delay - 15 swings/minute
25% haste - 225 delay - 16 swings/minute - 6.7% increase

Going from 20 to 25% haste increases swings/minute more than going from 0 to 5% haste.

You have completely missed the point of the effect of haste on comparative delay reduction. I never disputed that haste is good. In fact it is so good that as you add more and more of it, the comparative difference in delay gains from a lower delay weapon shrink more and more.

No offense, but while your post is generally educational, it is completely irrelevant to my comment.

[ringthree]

Even if the physical number is smaller, the percent increase is not, which is the important part anyway. The difference between Unji/Perdu/AF and Senj/Perdu/Haub is more than 26 delay, and I believe the common line of thinking is that if you're building for speed, all out or nothing is the way to go.

Actually, this is my point as to why changing gear set up's based on such a minimal delay difference is ridiculous. Yes, the difference in delay would be greater if you used AF instead of a Haub, and it would be even greater if you used the Turban instead of a O Hat, or Byakko's Haidate instead of RK Legs, repeat ad nauseum. My point is that making claims that you should try to leverage the gains of 26 delay (remember that is even before you consider gear so the gap is already much smaller) by alter gear selective will achieve nothing. The more delay reduction that is applied the more that gear adjustments become irrelevant.

Regardless, I'm not going to sit here and say that just because a lot of people do something one way, it means that way is right. I've just given up on "shit is situational" since too many people don't get that and never will. In my experience speed katana users tend towards AF and I recommend Chiv Chain on the assumption that even if I tell them it's not always the best choice, they're going to ignore me anyway, so they might as well end up slightly ahead. Likewise with Senj NINs, Haub, and Specs.

As with most things the real answer is "get a PCC" or "a little of column A, a little of column B" depending on how you look at it (and how deep your wallet is).

Again, I have to emphasize that making the decision to "maximize" an aspect can be applied no matter the katana pairing. This is the thing that the people that claim that you have to "maximize" anything to the point of neglecting everything else completely miss; there is a point of diminishing returns, where the comparative gain in delay reduction will not outweigh the benefit gained from other aspects of gear.

Once a person understands the difference between the cumulative benefits of haste and how haste has a point of diminishing comparative returns, then they will be able to best equip themselves.

[Coldone]

Hope Torque

[LinktheDeme]

Even if the physical number is smaller, the percent increase is not, which is the important part anyway. The difference between Unji/Perdu/AF and Senj/Perdu/Haub is more than 26 delay, and I believe the common line of thinking is that if you're building for speed, all out or nothing is the way to go.

Actually, this is my point as to why changing gear set up's based on such a minimal delay difference is ridiculous. Yes, the difference in delay would be greater if you used AF instead of a Haub, and it would be even greater if you used the Turban instead of a O Hat, or Byakko's Haidate instead of RK Legs, repeat ad nauseum. My point is that making claims that you should try to leverage the gains of 26 delay (remember that is even before you consider gear so the gap is already much smaller) by alter gear selective will achieve nothing. The more delay reduction that is applied the more that gear adjustments become irrelevant.

Regardless, I'm not going to sit here and say that just because a lot of people do something one way, it means that way is right. I've just given up on "shit is situational" since too many people don't get that and never will. In my experience speed katana users tend towards AF and I recommend Chiv Chain on the assumption that even if I tell them it's not always the best choice, they're going to ignore me anyway, so they might as well end up slightly ahead. Likewise with Senj NINs, Haub, and Specs.

As with most things the real answer is "get a PCC" or "a little of column A, a little of column B" depending on how you look at it (and how deep your wallet is).

Again, I have to emphasize that making the decision to "maximize" an aspect can be applied no matter the katana pairing. This is the thing that the people that claim that you have to "maximize" anything to the point of neglecting everything else completely miss; there is a point of diminishing returns, where the comparative gain in delay reduction will not outweigh the benefit gained from other aspects of gear.

Once a person understands the difference between the cumulative benefits of haste and how haste has a point of diminishing comparative returns, then they will be able to best equip themselves.

I love this guy now he thinks how I do ;3

edit: Also MAXIMALS MAXIMIZE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dak Rey]

Actually, you have it backwards. Unlike most other things, haste has increasing effect as you add more, as it is based on a % of the original weapon delay.

300 delay weapon = 60*60/300 = 12 swings/minute
5% haste: 300*0.95=285 delay:12.6 swings/minute (5.2% increase)
20% haste - 240 delay - 15 swings/minute
25% haste - 225 delay - 16 swings/minute - 6.7% increase

Going from 20 to 25% haste increases swings/minute more than going from 0 to 5% haste.

Ok, so maths isn't my strong point, but could someone explain to me why haste is calculated by multiplying by 0.95 rather than dividing my 1.05?

300 delay weapon = 12 swings a minute
5% Haste: 300/1.05 = 285.714 = 12.600 swings/minute (4.762% increase) (the above example is actually 12.63)
20% Haste: 300/1.2 = 250 delay = 14.4 swings/minute
25% Haste: 300/1.25= 240 delay = 15 swings/minute (4% increase) (I think the above example is actually a 6.25% increase and not 6.7%?)

Which would show diminishing returns.

So again, I'm not trying to say that you are wrong about increasing returns, I don't have enough confidence in my maths for that, I'm just wondering why it is multiplied instead of divided?

[Tulun]

Actually, you have it backwards. Unlike most other things, haste has increasing effect as you add more, as it is based on a % of the original weapon delay.

300 delay weapon = 60*60/300 = 12 swings/minute
5% haste: 300*0.95=285 delay:12.6 swings/minute (5.2% increase)
20% haste - 240 delay - 15 swings/minute
25% haste - 225 delay - 16 swings/minute - 6.7% increase

Going from 20 to 25% haste increases swings/minute more than going from 0 to 5% haste.

Ok, so maths isn't my strong point, but could someone explain to me why haste is calculated by multiplying by 0.95 rather than dividing my 1.05?

300 delay weapon = 12 swings a minute
5% Haste: 300/1.05 = 285.714 = 12.600 swings/minute (4.762% increase) (the above example is actually 12.63)
20% Haste: 300/1.2 = 250 delay = 14.4 swings/minute
25% Haste: 300/1.25= 240 delay = 15 swings/minute (4% increase) (I think the above example is actually a 6.25% increase and not 6.7%?)

Which would show diminishing returns.

So again, I'm not trying to say that you are wrong about increasing returns, I don't have enough confidence in my maths for that, I'm just wondering why it is multiplied instead of divided?

Duration / [(Delay * Haste) / 60]

Is the haste formula as far as I understand it. (Duration is how many swings you are testing in a length in seconds: 30 or 60 for drk zergs )

[skurlover]

Actually, you have it backwards. Unlike most other things, haste has increasing effect as you add more, as it is based on a % of the original weapon delay.

300 delay weapon = 60*60/300 = 12 swings/minute
5% haste: 300*0.95=285 delay:12.6 swings/minute (5.2% increase)
20% haste - 240 delay - 15 swings/minute
25% haste - 225 delay - 16 swings/minute - 6.7% increase

Going from 20 to 25% haste increases swings/minute more than going from 0 to 5% haste.

Ok, so maths isn't my strong point, but could someone explain to me why haste is calculated by multiplying by 0.95 rather than dividing my 1.05?
300 delay weapon = 12 swings a minute
5% Haste: 300/1.05 = 285.714 = 12.600 swings/minute (4.762% increase) (the above example is actually 12.63)
20% Haste: 300/1.2 = 250 delay = 14.4 swings/minute
25% Haste: 300/1.25= 240 delay = 15 swings/minute (4% increase) (I think the above example is actually a 6.25% increase and not 6.7%?)

Which would show diminishing returns.

So again, I'm not trying to say that you are wrong about increasing returns, I don't have enough confidence in my maths for that, I'm just wondering why it is multiplied instead of divided?

When you want to find out what 5% discount on an item in the grocery store is, you don't add 5% (basis math says a discount is a subtraction) and then calculate from there.

$2 Tofu crap that a certain someone eats *with a 10% discount* = $1.80 -- Easy math
$2 X .90 = $1.80

Doing it the other way:
$2 Same shitty Tofu *with a backwards 10% discount* = $1.81
$2 / 1.1 = $1.82

EDIT : Ring, you ARE your f*cking O-Kotes. And NO, I don't want to spank you.

[VZX]

Actually, you have it backwards. Unlike most other things, haste has increasing effect as you add more, as it is based on a % of the original weapon delay.

300 delay weapon = 60*60/300 = 12 swings/minute
5% haste: 300*0.95=285 delay:12.6 swings/minute (5.2% increase)
20% haste - 240 delay - 15 swings/minute
25% haste - 225 delay - 16 swings/minute - 6.7% increase

Going from 20 to 25% haste increases swings/minute more than going from 0 to 5% haste.

Ok, so maths isn't my strong point, but could someone explain to me why haste is calculated by multiplying by 0.95 rather than dividing my 1.05?

300 delay weapon = 12 swings a minute
5% Haste: 300/1.05 = 285.714 = 12.600 swings/minute (4.762% increase) (the above example is actually 12.63)
20% Haste: 300/1.2 = 250 delay = 14.4 swings/minute
25% Haste: 300/1.25= 240 delay = 15 swings/minute (4% increase) (I think the above example is actually a 6.25% increase and not 6.7%?)

Which would show diminishing returns.

So again, I'm not trying to say that you are wrong about increasing returns, I don't have enough confidence in my maths for that, I'm just wondering why it is multiplied instead of divided?

my answer:
http://www.freewebs.com/vzx-01/faq.htm

see haste section

[cassiraa]

On the neck gear debate, I'd say Specs over Chiv [I use Hope ] Using a cheap stack of Juji Shuriken that doesn't lose TP when you swap out bomblet, a solid Sange is a free 400 or so when pulling a mamool, swapping in R.Acc gear. Even with only one merit, this is fun.

On the haste debate, as a U/U NIN, I like my haste. For me the proof was in the parse, I consistently performed better with U/U/AF1(+1) than S/U/Haub, and that was enough for me.

[ringthree]

On the neck gear debate, I'd say Specs over Chiv [I use Hope ] Using a cheap stack of Juji Shuriken that doesn't lose TP when you swap out bomblet, a solid Sange is a free 400 or so when pulling a mamool, swapping in R.Acc gear. Even with only one merit, this is fun.

On the haste debate, as a U/U NIN, I like my haste. For me the proof was in the parse, I consistently performed better with U/U/AF1(+1) than S/U/Haub, and that was enough for me.

I dont think the question is so much U/U/AF1 versus S/U/Haub, its more U/U versus S/U with the body piece on. Switching two variables in a parse prevents a good analysis of which variable is the important one, or both, or neither.