Gorget & One-hit WS Acc

[RKenshin]

So to get the obvious out of the way, a long time ago SE patched one-hit WS accuracy to be higher than normal. Before this it was calculated the same way melee acc was, and how multi-hit WS are believed to be now.

I've always turned WS hit/miss/acc off on the parser, but recently started turning it on. After my most recent PT, I'm curious about this. The PT lasted about 2-3 hours, 22k/h, fighting 100% Mamools at the bird camp. Here's the thing:

• - 413.35 accuracy in melee gear, resulting in an 85% hit-rate.
  
  - 374.45 accuracy in WS gear, resulting in a 96% hit-rate.

This is a rather large sample size over about 300 WS and over 1400 hits, so it has a reasonable amount of accuracy. However my melee hit-rate is likely slightly lower than it should be from the occasional switch into defense gear and lurkers.

But this means that in total, Breeze Gorget + bonus acc = at least ~60 accuracy. Which is rather insane.

Has anyone done any tests regarding this?

[Max™]

Ya know... besides my mostly skewed RR acc tests, I have noticed a ridiculous accuracy with Steel Cyclone since getting my gorget, to the point where whiffs literally make me curse anymore.

Mbhuj
Pole/Mythril +1
Bcore
Gambu helmet(or Uni cap cause I'm still not sure mathematically how 4 str vs 15 vit works out)
Snow
Brutal
Str earring
Nbody
Alky's
Flame
Rajas
Smilo +1
Warwolf
Barone or whatever
Nfeet

Not much Acc.

[RKenshin]

About 351 acc assuming 68 base DEX (?) and fully merited GA. Not counting Aggressor.

Basically puts you in the same boat. 351 total acc would put most people at like 65-70%.

[jibini]

We had a fairly lengthy discussion about this on lolAlla's Samurai boards a few months back, let me see if I can dig up the thread...

Here we go: Clicky

There's a lot of drivel in there, but there is some good stuff too, including some parsed stuff and some theories on what's actually going on.

[Sanjiyan]

I don't have anything to add except anecdotal evidence as well, but I've noticed it for quite a while now. Back when I was skilling polearm on my WAR in besieged, when still at a low skill level, whereas I'd whiff like 80-90% of my swings, my double thrusts when I had TP landed almost all the time. I saw similar things back when skilling scythe with the single hitter vorpal scythe too. This was all without gorgets, and using the same gear as my TP gear (too laggy in besieged to bother with WS gear swaps).

Seems like some WSs, I won't say all, have inherently a higher accuracy. How much a WS gorget contributes on top of that (could be just minimal if the inherent accuracy is high) is unknown.

Still, it's interesting.

[Kirschy]

Are you accounting for the fact that the WS is considered a hit, even if the first hit misses? The obvious being here that if you Kaiten and it DA, and you miss the first hit or the DA hit, it's still considered a landed WS.

I've recently been lvling SAM, and I've parsed every XP session from 43->71. I weaponskill and tp in the exact same gear, which I think lends itself to a very accurate data sample in determining if there is a bonus. My WS accuracy followed exactly from my melee hit%. (Taking into account that Enpi and Jinpu are two-hit weaponskills.)

So to get the obvious out of the way, a long time ago SE patched one-hit WS accuracy to be higher than normal. Before this it was calculated the same way melee acc was, and how multi-hit WS are believed to be now.

What I want to say here comes from my experiences over 4 years ago. I remember fighting Fafnir and using Spiral Hell to make a Distortion Skillchain. Sushi didn't exist back then, I had horrible shitty gear, and my accuracy was probably 20% or lower. But Spiral Hell landed almost everytime. I was always under the impression that WS had some kind of innate accuracy bonus akin to their damage bonus. Another great example was fighting Byakko for the first time. I had a rough time landing any hits, but WS landed extremely easy in comparision. I'm not aware of any patch that boosted 1-hit WS accuracy... but I'm sure at least back then, WS had an accuracy bonus.

It's always been my feeling that every WS had a fTP modifier that modified accuracy. Each one has a Damage modifier, and some of them are even below 1.0. I think WS like Sidewinder have a lower Accuracy fTP while others like Spiral Hell or Steel Cyclone have a higher fTP. I believe the gorget modifies this by 25/256 just as it does for the damage.

[Hakamaru]

Yeah, 1-hit WSs get a pretty insane ACC boost. I never really dealt with it til I leveled SAM, but I noticed right away when I got Yukikaze.

If you follow that Alla thread, you'll probably see the test I ran with a friend. I made him WS through out a merit party with no WS gorget, and he still came within striking distance of capping WS ACC on birds while his melee ACC was quite a bit lower.

I don't WS in any ACC pieces on SAM, and my WS ACC never creeps below 93%.

Milich/Pahn was suggesting this might be a level-correction removal, and I have been trying to get out and test that theory. Basically, there wouldn't be any level correction on something EM or lower... so I just need to take a mage job out with a weapon that has low skill and do a buncha WSs on EMs. If there's a WS ACC bonus in that case, it's not level-correction removal.

Edit : I've also seen this reported in regards to spirit taker. It's possible this applies to all 1-hit WSs or the first hit of any physical WS.

And it's not hard to account for DAs manually after you parse. Just count how many times you see a 1-TP return and then account for that in the parse output. It's only easy to deal with the first hit here.

[BerenTebogo]

Reading this reminded me to break out the gorget for Metsu, and has kinda given me inspiration to drop some ACC gear for metsu and stack DEX+

And since Kirschy and RK are both posting in this thread, to my knowledge, relic WS cannot crit, is this correct?

[Kirschy]

Out of all the tests I've done with Catastrophe on bees, I never once saw anything that would be critical damage unless I was using Sneak Attack. I think it's safe to say Relic WS cannot crit.

[VZX]

*snip*
But this means that in total, Breeze Gorget + bonus acc = at least ~60 accuracy. Which is rather insane.

YGK are known for its pDIF and acc boost. When this change occured? I'm pretty sure it's before I took up my SAM to 60ish

As far as gorget, didn't someone point out in releena's LJ that it adds +10acc on the following hit? Assuming Fast Blade doesn't have modified accuracy, then gorget should be +10 acc on all hits.

P.S: I can only dream slugwinder getting such boost

[mallister]

i have nothing concrete to add (parsed, etc) however my experience has been exactly opposite in regards to spiral hell. even with snow gorget, /sam and hasso, my accuracy with it is horrid. as far as gear goes i'm pretty much lacking only adaberk, nhead, ares legs:

af+1 head
snow
hecatomb body
potent
black cuisses
hecatomb leggings/amir feet
rajas/woodsman
abyssal/brutal
bomblet
pole/tred or martial depending on cirumstances

i really don't feel like i should be having accuracy issues but i've recently added in amir and woodsman vs hecatomb/flame and i still whiff regularly enough to stay annoyed about it.

@Rk: which parser do you use? i was using directparse and iirc it had a 'skill accuracy' column but didn't track WS accuracy (possible i had it configured incorrectly. had WS damage, of course). i'd be very interested to do some real testing vs. the eyeballing i'm having to do now on my WS performance.

edit: got molione's set last night so ring set will change while i'm trying it out.

[orson]

Wasn't it tested and shown that WS gorgets provide no marginal difference over using a PCC or Jailer Torque on multihit WSs? One of the theories I believe was that they only effect the first hit of a WS. Either I remember there was some gorget tests in the old dex/crit testing thread I'm pretty sure.

[Max™]

There were tests but it's still up in the air.

If I wasn't such a gear whore I'd get Mnk to Asuran level, get a Flame Gorget and test it myself...

...but I won't level Mnk unless it's how it was before 2h buff rekindled War for me and I sold everything.

Yeah 68 base Dex.

I would say that I get more than 90% Acc on Steel Cyclone in that gear while fighting shit like Aura Statues, which are a good mob to test against last I checked.

Hell, last Kirin burn the bards got mixed up and we got 4 minuets instead of min/min/mad/mad/march/march, and with Aggressor/Hasso and that gear I landed two steel cyclones with doubles on the big bastard.


As for the Acc testing, Ruke can explain better if he wants too, but I did about 300 WSes testing, and 200 with minimal Acc gear, 100 with Snow, 100 without any neckpiece, but my DA rate probably skewed it.

I still landed 5% more hits with it, and the damage difference certainly looks noticeable with a crit TP ws, when I compare RR's with the other Wars with basically the same gear, but Hume/Elvaan vs Taru... I'm pretty sold on it.

[Xrave]

Wasn't it tested and shown that WS gorgets provide no marginal difference over using a PCC or Jailer Torque on multihit WSs? One of the theories I believe was that they only effect the first hit of a WS.

I look at it as:

If I'm wearing the gorget, we're fairly certain it applies for the first hit and none of the others; however we're not sure even after looking at the test results.

If I'm wearing the torque, I know 100% that the stats apply for all hits.

[Max™]

No, with Gorget you're only sure it applies to the first hit, testing is inconclusive if it applies to the rest. The ftp bonus does seem to apply across all the hits though (believe this was shown with whiff first hit/landed double damages?) and various tests have suggested the Acc may too... while others have suggested it may not.

I'm gonna have to get Mnk up and get a flame gorget aren't I?

[mallister]

yus >.>

[orson]

No, with Gorget you're only sure it applies to the first hit, testing is inconclusive if it applies to the rest. The ftp bonus does seem to apply across all the hits though (believe this was shown with whiff first hit/landed double damages?) and various tests have suggested the Acc may too... while others have suggested it may not.

I'm gonna have to get Mnk up and get a flame gorget aren't I?

Hey you gotta do what you gotta do.

Excellent, hurray for being to lazy to test stuff for myself.

[Kirschy]

A few things to add~

When they first introduced the 2H patch normal hits and criticals had a cap of 3.0 pdif. This allowed extremely easy testing of fSTR(which I didn't take advantage of) and multihit WS(which I did do some testing on.) Shortly after the patch was introduced I went to qufim and Guillotine'd the crabs there. I was able to land two hits with consistant damage everytime. I was even lucky enough to get two Guillotines where I missed the first hit but landed the next two. The results showed conclusively that the damage ftp is only applied to the first hit, but the WS mods are applied to each hit. Using gorget only added damage to the first hit of the WS in the predicted way.

I leveled SAM today from 71->73. What I did is parse all of Lv 72. I used Meat Mithkabobs and didn't change gear at all during the level. I only used Tachi: Gekko. The only mobs we fought were Imps, and there was no BRD or DNC in the party. I skilled up 5 GKT points during the duration of the level. (I can SS or post the whole parse if it will help, but I'm lazy and just going to copy the relevant information.)

Kirschy - 72 SAM/WAR:
DEX: 66+14
GKT Skill: 256-261 (I think? I have no GKT Merits)
Melee: 708 hits, 162 misses, 81.38% acc
WS: 152 WS, 2 Misses, 98.70% acc

I have other parses I could present, but it seems accepted that Gekko has an accuracy boost. What I believe is that not all 1-Hit WS display a high accuracy bonus like Gekko. An example being a parse from when we were around 45ish. I used Enpi, and my duo (a DRK) used Hard Slash.

Melee: 904 Hits, 75 Misses, 93.40% acc
WS: 117 WS, 9 Misses, 92.86% acc

I have a few more parses, but I'm being lazy to dig through them all to find them. I recall the DRK having a bit of trouble when we overcamped on Spiders. His WS accuracy(Vorpal Scythe) was floating around 90%, while I was 100% due to using Jinpu/Enpi which is two hits.

[Hakamaru]

I have other parses I could present, but it seems accepted that Gekko has an accuracy boost. What I believe is that not all 1-Hit WS display a high accuracy bonus like Gekko. An example being a parse from when we were around 45ish. I used Enpi, and my duo (a DRK) used Hard Slash.

Melee: 904 Hits, 75 Misses, 93.40% acc
WS: 117 WS, 9 Misses, 92.86% acc

I have a few more parses, but I'm being lazy to dig through them all to find them. I recall the DRK having a bit of trouble when we overcamped on Spiders. His WS accuracy(Vorpal Scythe) was floating around 90%, while I was 100% due to using Jinpu/Enpi which is two hits.

You're dangerously close to capped there. You really need to get your melee ACC down into the mid 80s to say anything here.

[fantasticdan]

Gorget on slugwinder doesn't seem to add much, if any accuracy over using pcc, I definitely think most of the accuracy bonus you are seeing is the ws itself. I don't have sam leveled, but spinning slash for instance I get capped accuracy with on pretty much anything, without gorget, even if my hit rate (in tp gear which is more acc than ws gear) is around 80%.