New Observations Strongly Suggest Unknown "Structures" Tug at Our Universe

[Cochise]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...rse-multiverse

Hey Miz, Ive been away from astronomy for awhile... Are they still blind to our universe being a debris field in the orbit of another mass. lol

John Roach
for National Geographic News
Published March 22, 2010

"Dark flow" is no fluke, suggests a new study that strengthens the case for unknown, unseen "structures" lurking on the outskirts of creation.

In 2008 scientists reported the discovery of hundreds of galaxy clusters streaming in the same direction at more than 2.2 million miles (3.6 million kilometers) an hour.

This mysterious motion can't be explained by current models for distribution of mass in the universe. So the researchers made the controversial suggestion that the clusters are being tugged on by the gravity of matter outside the known universe.

Now the same team has found that the dark flow extends even deeper into the universe than previously reported: out to at least 2.5 billion light-years from Earth.

After using two additional years' worth of data and tracking twice the number of galaxy clusters, "we clearly see the flow, we clearly see it pointing in the same direction," said study leader Alexander Kashlinsky, an astrophysicist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Maryland.

"It looks like a very coherent flow."

The find adds to the case that chunks of matter got pushed outside the known universe shortly after the big bang—which in turn hints that our universe is part of something larger: a multiverse.

Dark Flow's Extended Reach

Kashlinsky and colleagues first noticed the dark flow when studying the way gas in galaxy clusters interacts with the cosmic microwave background radiation. This burst of light is thought to have been released just 380,000 years after the big bang and now permeates the universe.

(Related: "Universe 20 Million Years Older Than Thought.")

Data from the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) can show the minute temperature changes created as the cosmic microwave background radiation moves through gases in galaxy clusters.

These gases scatter light from the cosmic microwave background radiation as it passes through the clusters, similar to the way Earth's atmosphere can scatter starlight, making some stars twinkle.

But the clusters are also moving relative to the background radiation, so the scattered light gets distorted further by the Doppler effect. This distortion appears in the form of temperature shifts in WMAP data, which can reveal the clusters' direction and speed.

"It is very difficult to isolate [the temperature change] for each individual cluster," Kashlinsky said, so the original study had examined 700 clusters.

The new study is based on the collective motion of about 1,400 galaxy clusters, and seeing dark flow with the greater number of clusters gives the researchers more confidence in their result.

In addition, the team tested their analysis method by comparing the x-ray brightness of certain clusters with the strength of temperature changes seen in the WMAP data. Brighter clusters—those with more hot gases—would be expected to have greater affects on the cosmic microwave background, and that's what the new study confirmed.

Kashlinsky speculates that the dark flow extends "all the way across the visible universe," or about 47 billion light-years, which would fit with the notion that the clusters are being pulled by matter that lies beyond known horizons.

Dark flow, he said, "would be much more difficult to explain theoretically if it extended [2.5 billion light-years] and then just stopped."

Findings are reported in the March 20 issue of The Astrophysical Journal Letters.

[Woozie]

"Proof" is too strong. Article title (and topic title) should say "suggests", or maybe even "strongly suggests".

Edit: I'm not being nitpicky or anything. We just know way too little about the large scale structure of the universe to be using the word "proof" for things like this. People are going to see the word proof and take it to mean that we're 100% confident about what's going on here. You know how people see news articles about science and just run with it.

[Woozie]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...rse-multiverse

Hey Miz, Ive been away from astronomy for awhile... Are they still blind to our universe being a debris field in the orbit of another mass. lol

We're blind to just about everything in our universe lol. It's kind of frustrating, to be honest. Everytime we think we know "almost everything", we find out how far off we are. Right now we can only describe reasonably well about 4% of our universe (i.e. the stuff in our universe that isn't dark energy or dark matter). The other 96% is such a huge mystery even after a decade of intense study.

This is good news for Miz and the other cosmologist/astrophysicists, since 96% of the field he's going into is still mostly uncharted territory. If he discovers the correct answers, maybe they'll name dark energy after him (i.e. 74% of the universe would be named after Miz).

This is sort of bad news for people like me, who grow more and more frustrated every day at our inability to test the stuff we're trying to explain (which is funny because I want to be a theoretical physicists so I should be fine with things we can't test. But I like the idea that *someday* we should be able to test things that are theoretical now. Things like this may not ever be testable since it occurs outside our visible universe. This means we may end up with dozens of competing theories that we can't decide between, similar to the situation we have now with GUTs and TOEs).

As for my view on the multiverse thing: I withold judgement for the most part. But it does seem a bit more likely that we are a small part of a much larger structure. In theoretical physics, we're reaching the point where we have to introduce these ideas in every theory just to keep them consistant. Of course, it could just mean every single theory in theoretical physics is completely off-track. Even though I doubt that any of our GUTs or TOEs are exactly right, I think the fact that introducing these same ideas seem to be a requisite for making a theory workable mathematically might indicate that such ideas hint at reality. Plus, astronomers keep observing things that are explainable by these types of ideas. None of this proves anything with a high level of certainty, which is why I withold judgement. But I'd be more surprised to find out our universe is alone than I would be to find out there are more universes out there and we're just a small part of a bigger picture.

[Mizango]

Yeah that's pretty neat huh? I posted a few ideas regarding this on my FB page a few weeks ago. Its funny because in light of what we are finding and our theories in regards to dark matter and dark energy weren't mind numbingly vexing enough, we get thrown us yet another cosmic curve ball. I think its pretty darn neat that there's some unexplained two million mph directional shift in the universe that appears to be yanking us towards a colossal, unknown gravity source.

I cant but wonder how long proponents of Professor Mordehai Milgrom have waited years to say "BOOYAH I TOLD U SO!" in relation to his somewhat "out there" variable gravity well theory lol. If im not mistaken I saw a paper he submitted last week, or maybe two weeks ago to the Astrophysical journal, but I have yet to read it. I wonder if it has something to do with this seeing as how it coincides with these findings lol.

Edit: Woozie is right about the "proof" thing. Unfortunately not much is as it appears or is a head and shoulders absolute in this field.

[Mizango]

We're blind to just about everything in our universe lol. It's kind of frustrating, to be honest. Everytime we think we know "almost everything", we find out how far off we are. Right now we can only describe reasonably well about 4% of our universe (i.e. the stuff in our universe that isn't dark energy or dark matter). The other 96% is such a huge mystery even after a decade of intense study.

This is sort of bad news for people like me, who grow more and more frustrated every day at our inability to test the stuff we're trying to explain (which is funny because I want to be a theoretical physicists so I should be fine with things we can't test. But I like the idea that *someday* we should be able to test things that are theoretical now. Things like this may not ever be testable since it occurs outside our visible universe. This means we may end up with dozens of competing theories that we can't decide between, similar to the situation we have now with GUTs and TOEs).

100% right on the head my brother.

This is good news for Miz and the other cosmologist/astrophysicists, since 96% of the field he's going into is still mostly uncharted territory. If he discovers the correct answers, maybe they'll name dark energy after him (i.e. 74% of the universe would be named after Miz).

ROFL that would be scary. I'd give you a much privileged place in the sky too Woozie, you've been on this ride with me and in my corner for a very long time, its only natural I pay homage in a grand fashion Although, we'd have to name a few empty voids after Vajra. Or perhaps even stars that suck at living and go nova due to critical failure, sound good?

[tyven]

OMG A MULTIVERSE?

[Eliseos]

ROFL that would be scary. I'd give you a much privileged place in the sky too Woozie, you've been on this ride with me and in my corner for a very long time, its only natural I pay homage in a grand fashion Although, we'd have to name a few empty voids after Vajra. Or perhaps even stars that suck at living and go nova due to critical failure, sound good?

Name the space elevator after me.

[Chun Liroy]

Oh god that'd be hilarious. Michio Kaku: "That's correct. 74% of the universe is made up of Mizango, a mysterious substance that has special interactions with regular matter."

[Mizango]

Oh god that'd be hilarious. Michio Kaku: "That's correct. 74% of the universe is made up of Mizango, a mysterious substance that has special interactions with regular matter."

Oh lawdy. I'd be happy to demonstrate the chemical make up of my "mysterious substance"? Holla a'cha boi.

Name the space elevator after me.

Anything for you. LHC homies get priority.

[Woozie]

Its funny because in light of what we are finding and our theories in regards to dark matter and dark energy weren't mind numbingly vexing enough, we get thrown us yet another cosmic curve ball. I think its pretty darn neat that there's some unexplained two million mph directional shift in the universe that appears to be yanking us towards a colossal, unknown gravity source.

See, this is what frustrates me. I'm starting to thing we're all in the Matrix and the computers are just adding things as we go just to torture us.

First we were like, "hey we know everything except this radiactivity thing, planet Mercury acts kind of weird, and the sun is somewhat confusing. But other than those few minor things, we're can explain everything else"

Then we discover the whole quantum world and we find out that the entire structure of the universe itself isn't anything like we thought (i.e. we discovered GR).

Then we were like "Hey we know how the universe got here and why it looks this way (GR), and we know how all the individual parts function (QM)"

Then we find out that the large scale universe doesn't even work the way GR predicts because we were only taking into account visible matter, which only accounts for a mere 4% of our universe. And don't get me started on how much of a mess our theory of the small scale universe became (the standard model).

Oh, and did I mention that GR and QM contradict each other? So our understanding of the 4% is necissarily incorrect.

But hey, 4% seems like a lot, right? I mean, we're a small insignificant speck, and we managed to chart out 4% of existance. Well guess what, there's a whole other universe out there pulling on ours. So we don't know 4% of everything, we know 4% of a small part of a bigger picture. And again, our understanding of that 4% is still by using theories that aren't even self consistent (GR and QM) and relying on the standard model.

[Mizango]

See, this is what frustrates me. I'm starting to thing we're all in the Matrix and the computers are just adding things as we go just to torture us.

First we were like, "hey we know everything except this radiactivity thing, mercury acts kind of weird, and the sun is somewhat confusing. But other than those few minor things, we're can explain everything else"

Then we discover the whole quantum world and we find out that the entire structure of the universe itself isn't anything like we thought (i.e. we discovered GR).

Then we were like "Hey we know how the universe got here and why it looks this way (GR), and we know how all the individual parts function (QM)"

Then we find out that the large scale universe doesn't even work the way GR predicts because we were only taking into account visible matter, which only accounts for a mere 4% of our universe. And don't get me started on how much our theory of the small scale universe became. I mean, QM is solid, but the standard model sure isn't. Oh, and I take that back, QM may not necissarily be solid. And if it is, then GR certainly isn't. So either way we have to throw away half of our understanding of the 4% of the universe we think we understand.

But hey, 4% seems like a lot, right? Well guess what, there's a whole other universe out there pulling on ours. So we don't know 4% of everything, we know 4% of a small part of a bigger picture. And again, our understanding of that 4% is still by using theories that aren't even self consistent (GR and QM).

Yeah the more you look at it, the harder it is to not want to pound your head into a wall lol. I mean there are countless examples of this, look at the information paradox of black holes for instance. We are talking about that is class, well we were 2 weeks ago, and it was getting very heated. I mean you have to work hard to take it in stride, im finding that is the hardest part.

[Mizango]

Gettin mah nerd on while on a boring conference call, ill clean some of this up when im done lol. This thread is keeping me awake thankfully.

[Woozie]

Yeah the more you look at it, the harder it is to not want to pound your head into a wall lol. I mean there are countless examples of this, look at the information paradox of black holes for instance. We are talking about that is class, well we were 2 weeks ago, and it was getting very heated. I mean you have to work hard to take it in stride, im finding that is the hardest part.

Well, hopefully we don't have to keep this up for long (the whole "answers bringing up even more questions" thing). I think we're going to have a revolution similar to the QM/GR one last century. I think it's going to drastically expand our knowledge (like QM/GR did) and change our understanding about our universe.

HOPEFULLY, this will be the last revolution of knowledge we need. Hopefully it doesn't just bring up even more questions than it answered like all of our other revolutions did. I guess it's kind of arrogant to think that an insignificant speck of existance such as our planet and our species is capable of understanding all of existance. I guess it's just wishful thinking on our part, but I really hope we figure all of this out soon. Or at the very least, I hope we make significant leaps in our understanding during my life time.

And I hope we get jet packs and ray guns and interestellar travel and find life on other planets in my life time. Complete understanding of nature would be nice, but I'd settle for these things.

Edit: And I guess the frustrating is worse for you, because you're in the hardest field to study (because we can't go do experiments on dark matter/dark energy, and 96% of your field of study depends on these things. In my field, I have the LHC doing direct experiments on our theories).

Edit 2: I guess particle physics isn't "my field" anymore since I'm probably going to go into solid state physics (since there are more jobs there). But I'll always be a theoretical particle physicist at heart D:

Edit 3: Well, I guess it's not really the hardest field to study. At least you have observations. People who theorize about the really high energy stuff have it the hardest. And now that I think about it, dark matter is just as much our problem as your's. My professor doesn't like the idea of me going into theoretical physics for this reason though. The progress being made in chemistry/biology/solid state physics is amazing. The progress being made in cosmology/particle physics/theoretical physics is negligible by comparison. Huge leaps in understanding or new technology is measured in decades instead of years. The scientist in the last century had it so good (the guys who fleshed out QM and GR). They were coming up with new stuff all the time and could actually do experiments to verify their theories.

[Mizango]

You and I both man QQ I sometimes hear the siren song of particle physics and wonder if I should have gone that route, you remember that loooong discussion don't you? lol. It's hard to choose when you genuinely love multiple facets of a particular subject and are forced to choose.

But oh well, it doesn't mean we cant love it all and keep learning. :D

[Eliseos]

You two should just become an engineer and get it over with.

[ZarakiKujata]

seems fitting they'd name dark matter after a darkie. Get crackalackin Miz.




Just have to beat DeGrasse Tyson to that big discovery.

[Mizango]

Just promise me that I get to take facebook photos of me sitting in the Lucasian chair after you overtake Michael Green for it. I used to want that seat bad, seeing as how Newton and Milner both held that honor. You can be the first brother to make it happen!

Make history.

[Effluo]

Nebiru, 13th Zodiac, 2012... It all makes sense now

[Mizango]

seems fitting they'd name dark matter after a darkie. Get crackalackin Miz.

HAHA

Just have to beat DeGrasse Tyson to that big discovery.

Nah, I'd work in concert with him to achieve such a lofty task. He invited my family and I to visit him at the Hayden planetarium this summer, so we will discuss our plans for world domination at that time.

Wonder negro powers, activate!

[Mizango]

Nebiru, 13th Zodiac, 2012... It all makes sense now

You already have the fail Texas angle working against you, don't make me loathe you with full capacity.