Proposing Something to SE, Need Help

[urat]

Well I didn't think this really fit in random questions, so I am coming here to ask you guys for some help.

I need help in brainstorming for an idea I have for square enix, to try and help fill in and patch up Dancer's offensive niche. We currently have a wide variety for support and enfeebling abilities, but our offensive range is limited compared.

I have a method I am attempted to propose to SE, but before this I want to make sure that it sounds right to you guys. I have put a lot of thought and effort into creating a system for dancer that is not too broken, but not weak and semi pointless either.

Nonetheless if you do have an issue with it, or something to point out or advice to offer, I will gladly take it and would love to discuss with you your ideas. I want to be able to present this to SE and tell them "I discussed this with the masses, look here's even a link, and they like the idea!"

Here is my entire write up, if you wish I will try and present a tl;dr version, but I would appreciate a full read so you can tell me what you feel on the matter.

Spoiler: show

Dancer is a very versatile job, capable of filling many niche roles, while not entirely excelling at them, the job manages to hold its own against the true jobs for such roles. Though it's no Red Mage, dancer can heal a party well enough. It might not be a Paladin or Ninja, dancer can hold its own against most monsters for the party and not die quickly. It might not be a Samurai, but dancer certainly has some potent weaponskills on hand.

Though the latest additions to Dancer from Square has broadened its abilities as a high damage output job, it still doesn't measure up to other classes. The primary reason for this, is Dancer's need TP for other uses than weaponskilling, which happen to be its primary resource for damage output via building up through job abilities like Building Flourish and Wild Flourish to create rather potent weaponskills in huge bursts of damage. But there is a downside.

Weaponskill consume ALL of our tp. Though with the latest update Dancer can set Samurai as its support job and use Sekkanoki every 5 minutes to breach this issue temporarily, the vast majority of the time a dancer gets a bad taste in his or her mouth at the thought of consuming all our TP for a single attack, putting us in a temporary danger zone while we regain it back. We won't be able to heal, Sambas are unable to be used, even for a brief moment we may not have enough TP to even perform a step!

This few seconds of danger could be devastating. What if moments after weaponskilling the tank gets hit with an unlikely attack that leaves his HP at a dangerous level? We could have healed him moments ago, but now all our TP has been consumed for a weaponskill, leaving us unable to help him at all and only stand by helplessly as we watch our party member die.

We could maintain our finishes for a Reverse Flourish and use that to regain our TP after a weaponskill, however that completely disregards the entire use of abilities like Wild Flourish, which put a 30 second recast on our Reverse Flourish after its use!

To solve this issue, I present a new method for Dancer to truly fill the niche of a damage dealer, Dynes (or whatever you wish to call it, I like the name Dyne as it follows Final Fantasy 9's pattern, as our 2 hour is Trance, but call it what you will)

Dynes are melee or magical attacks performed by the dancer that consume TP in set amounts. Similar to weakened versions of weaponskills. There are two varieties of Dynes, damaging or effect based. Damaging Dynes are self explanatory, they consume a portion of TP and do physical damage with various mods, a single chance of critical hits, or one very highly accurate attack with a dexterity mod, etc etc. On the other hand, effect based Dynes perform little to no actual damage but consume TP to inflict potent effects on the opponent. For example one dance could consume 25 TP to inflict the opponent with a potent blind effect for a short duration, much like the paladin's spell Flash. Or maybe a Dyne might inflict the opponent with a potent Poison effect. However unlike magic, most Effect based Dynes do not rely on magic accuracy, Intelligence, Mind, etc, but entirely the dancer's accuracy and skill with their weapon. Think of it as adding a 100% effective Eneffect to the dancer's next hit. As long as it actually physically lands, the effect activates. Or maybe there could be some effects that cost more TP and don't have a 100% chance of actually taking effect, but are far more potent then their 100% effective versions.

However, unlike weaponskills, Dynes do not consume all your TP. Each dyne consumes a very set amount of TP, like magic. For example one dyne that performs a single low accurate attack with a high amount of damage, lets call it Subversive Plunge or whatever, would consume exactly 35 TP, no more, no less. Because of this, a dancer has the ability to perform potent attacks and crippling effects without entirely consuming all of their TP. No longer does a dancer need to perform a potent attack and end up unable to heal afterwards for several seconds. Through Dynes, dancers can attack AND heal together!

However there is one special Dyne that dancers can perform once they have unlocked Dynes. Grand lethal, a very potent, highly accurate attack that causes tremendous damage, and doesn't consume any TP! However, this Dyne is only available when a dancer is under the effect of Trance, and upon using it, even if Trance was just used, it immediately is consumed and wears. Whether it is worth it is up to Dancers themselves and the situation, of course.

Dynes become unlocked from level 70 onwards, after the player has successfully bested Laila in the Final level cap raise quest. The player then can speak to Laila to learn about Dynes. She tells them about how if they truly want to become a great dancer, they must learn new dances. She states that, having learned under a Blue Mage for a year, she learned the ways of observing one's opponents and mimicking their attacks. However she was never able to grasp Blue Magic, but instead trained herself
to mimic her opponents in another way; through dance!

The player then journeys to a Blue Mage NPC located somewhere or other, anywhere is fine withing WotG or normal FFXI areas, as one cannot expect a player to own any other expansions other than WotG for these quests. The Blue Mage then shows them a list of his favourite monster attacks you should learn.

One then selects from the list, and he tells you how complicated the move is on a scale of 1-5 stars. The more complicated the move, the more times the dancer must “observe” the attack, while on dancer, to learn it. Observing the move can mean one of several things, depending on the move.

A: Simply being on the hate list of the monster when it performs it. Generally these would be self buffing moves, AoE attacks, etc.

B: Receiving the attack directly

or C: Receiving the attack and not evading it, which means if one had Utsusemi up when the attack is performed and shadows absorb it, the attack does not count. This is reserved for the most difficult of Dynes to learn.

The dancer then travels out into the wild in search of an opponent to learn this move from. The opponent must be strong and skilled enough to grant the Dancer experience points. There is no point in trying to learn the move from a weak opponent! They then engage and fight their opponent, and every time they use it the dancer carefully observes and watches the moves. Eventually, having seen the move enough times, they will adapt it to their repertoire of dances and gain a new Dyne!

However, in order to take on and learn higher tier Dynes, a dancer must start at difficulty level 1 Dynes and learn a certain amount before unlocking Tier 2, then Tier 3, etc etc. Not all of them, but about half of the list.

Here are some examples of Dynes I can think of from the top of my head:

Critical Plunge: ★★★★☆
Performs a low accurate physical attack with a dramatically high chance of performing critical damage and stunning the opponent.
Cost: 45 TP
Requirement:
Survive 100 throat stabs from Tonberries


Feathered Guard ★☆☆☆☆
Grants you temporary invulnerability to having your TP drained
Cost: 25 TP
Requirement:
Observe 300 Feather Tickles from Colibri


Dark Slash ★★★☆☆
Performs an attack with low accuracy that blinds opponent
Cost: 30 TP
Requirement:
Observe 100 Black Clouds


Rapid Fire ★★☆☆☆
Performs 5 highly accurate attacks in quick succession, lowers opponents accuracy
cost: 50 TP
Requirement:
Observe 100 Slipstreams

Finally, if a dancer ever does manage to learn all of the Dynes, they can unlock a series of quests to learn the ultimate of all Dynes, One Man Army!

First, the player must be far enough in the Wings of the Goddess plot to have met the dancer troupe and Lilessete. Upon talking to present Laila, she talks about how the leader of the troupe was the most amazing dance teacher she ever met, and if only you could have met him.

One ventures in the past to southern San d'Oria's tavern, where you originally met the leader of the troupe. Upon clicking the door you get a cut scene where the troupe leader requests you to return when you look like a dancer to him.

Return and click on the door again geared in your full artifact armor, and he decides to let you join the group if you can prove your worth as a dancer. You show him your copy of “The Essence of Dance” and he decides to let you join. You explain your situation and he tells you about an incredible dance he is attempting to teach his troupe, the Tarentella. He decides to see if you can master the dance, and you of course being a willing adventurer, agree to take on the challenge.

Your first task is to take a dagger given to you by Troupe Mayakov's leader and perform 10 of each dyne while wielding it. This will be record like weaponskill points, except via dynes. Return the knife to him after to complete the first step.

Second, you are given back the knife, now imbued with the power of your Dynes, and you must travel to the farthest tip of Beaucidine Glacier and hold up the knife (trade it to a ???)

A large Amphiptere spawns, requiring at least a full alliance of level 85+ members to kill, and commences attacking. After beating it, your character feels he is ready for the Tarentella.

You return to Southern San d'Oria [S] and talk to the troupe again, and Lilesette decides to test you. You head to Vunkerl Inlet and enter Everbloom hollow. Inside you face off against Lilessete. You must use everything in your arsenal to defeat her, solo.

After taking her down to 25% she concedes you are ready, and you learn the Tarentella. Then you return to the present and speak to Laila. You show her the Tarentella and she applauds you, then asks you if your ready to learn the Dancer's ultimate attack. You of course agree, and she teaches it to you.

Your character then has access to the ultimate of all dynes, the only one to measure up to Grand Lethal. The attack consumes 300 tp to perform an incredible 8 hit attack that cripples the opponents defense, evasion, attack, and accuracy. Coupled with a very potent stun and a temporary paramter enhancemnt for all party members (all stats+10) this attack is the ultimate of all moves for any Dancer's arsenal.

My main issue is, before presenting the idea to SE I would like at least 10 or more Dynes listed as examples. The more the merrier. I would also like to avoid abilities and moves used by monsters that Blue Mage already has, in order to try and separate the two jobs as much as possible.

To those who are wondering, why not just level blu, there is still a fundamental difference amongst the two jobs.

One must see a move used and kill a monster to learn it, any level.

The other is much more involved, only obtained at a high level, is a much smaller list of abilities, they do not have casting times, use TP instead of MP, do not skill chain, are not nearly as strong except the much higher end ones, which consume a lot more TP, are less buff based and more offensive, unlike blue mages large repertoire of spells that heal and buff, dancer already has a few.

Now! I'm bolding this for importance, I'm not saying the most effective to go about and obtaining/learning these moves would be the current method I have listed. It just seemed like an interesting method. If anyone has a more effective method to "learn" / "Gain" these moves, by all means please do state it!

In fact another idea I was toying around was where you would trade a dagger to an NPC and hey would tell you if it qualifies or not, if so you then when equipped with it you gain a Dyne set to that weapon.

Each of these special daggers, from level 1 onwards, have a Dyne you can learn from them, much like the weapons/ability system in FF9, which would further follow the methods of the game and fit better.

Every time you perform that Dyne with the dagger, you gain 1 point of experience with it. Get enough, and you can use that Dyne without the dagger equipped.

However after thinking about it I imagined how some daggers that would be excellent to be used would quickly be sold off the AH and rocket up in price, and there would be so much bitching and moaning about how its being mega camped and it costs 150K for a bronze knife.

The only way to counter that would be to stick to synthed only daggers, which would dramatically boost the demand for such daggers in the synthing economy. Good thing? Bad thing? I dunno you guys tell me.

If so, hell you could make it so its not just dancer specific but all jobs. Start off with about 10 or so dynes per weapon type, every 10 levels or so you could learn a new dyne.

I dunno, whats your thoughts on this BG?

[Hyan]

Y'know, I don't think they care about your idea in the slightest.

You can just go and tell them you think DNC's offensive capabilities are too limited with examples to support your claim. That's the best thing you could do.

[rog]

I still think turning dnc into blu is rather silly.

[urat]

Y'know, I don't think they care about your idea in the slightest.

You can just go and tell them you think DNC's offensive capabilities are too limited with examples to support your claim. That's the best thing you could do.

The thing is, the vast majority of the time when we just ask for something general like "We want more avatars" or "make it easier to do ____ on ____"

Well SE kinda delivers, but whatever we get 90% of the time leaves everyone frustrated because its not even close to what we were looking for, so I decided it might be better if we proposed something a bit more... direct.

Of course occasionally we do get something totally awesome and SE delivers.

[Hyan]

Well, yeah, that's SE for ya.

They've never cared about direct suggestions and I don't really see them changing. You can try of course, but it's a lot of wasted effort when it's likely that they won't care about your ideas.

They'll just do their own thing as always, hopefully with player feedback taken into consideration of course.

[urat]

I still think turning dnc into blu is rather silly.

At the bottom of the post I outlined the first alternative system I thought, but I cast it aside for several reasons.

First and foremost, potential Ah/item fucking up. Dagger drops off NM for next dyne? 3 billion dancer's camping a level 20 NM. 150K bronze knives, etc etc

If it stuck to just synthed items which fueled the economy, I dunno if it'd be a good or bad thing.

But the biggest thing I've noticed is that events like magian trials that promote working together over competing are much better received than HOLYSHITCLAIMTHATNMBEFOREEVERYONEELSE events.

For example, when ACP first came out there was a LOT of bitching and moaning about the fact that you had to rush and claim level 20 mobs from the entire goddamn server. I agree, that was retarded.

However the next mission, where simply killing any goblin could get the key item for anyone in the alliance was far better. Instead of having a CCer you had someone helping you kill, thus more people camping the item = faster and easier mission, not harder and slower.

Thus I wanted to create a system like that, where instead of competing to get the dagger or whatever, two dancer's working on the same Dyne could team up and get it together.

So if you can think of an alternative system that involves working together, hell I suppose you could take the weapon out of the equation and just have a list of dynes for a dancer to choose from, then go out and do it a hundred times til they master it, then come back and get a new one, that might work too.

[rog]

So if you can think of an alternative system that involves working together, hell I suppose you could take the weapon out of the equation and just have a list of dynes for a dancer to choose from, then go out and do it a hundred times til they master it, then come back and get a new one, that might work too.

That seems pretty logical to me.

[urat]

So if we got like:

Dynes!

Dancer's are now able to talk to the NPC Ahturghanstilname in Ru'lude Gardens to take on Dynes.

Simply speak to him and select a dyne to attempt from the list, and proceed out to your nearest exp giving monster and start using that Dyne!

Use it enough times, and you can learn it permenantly! Then head back to NPCnamehere to start a new Dyne! As you gain levels, more techniques will become available to learn!

Dynes will consume portions of your TP to perform potent physical attacks that damage your opponent, some focusing on hard hitting moves, others strong detrimental effects.

Here are some examples:

Rapid Fire ★★☆☆☆
Performs 5 highly accurate attacks in quick succession, lowers opponents accuracy
cost: 50 TP

Feathered Guard ★☆☆☆☆
Grants you temporary invulnerability to having your TP drained
Cost: 25 TP

Dark Slash ★★★☆☆
Performs an attack with low accuracy that blinds opponent
Cost: 30 TP

Critical Plunge: ★★★★☆
Performs a low accurate physical attack with a dramatically high chance of performing critical damage and stunning the opponent.
Cost: 45 TP

In an update notice, you'd be like "Hey that kinda sounds cool" as opposed to "Wtf is this shit?!"

[Oulanbator]

So, a very summarized version could be: "Give us special weaponskills that consume less than 100 Tp" and "add some buffs in the pack through feathered guard" ?


I may be wrong, but from what I understand, a versatile job doesn't mean a job able to do everything at the same time, but a job that can choose a way to do things that correspond to what the group needs for a specific situation.
For example, a Sch chooses to nuke or heal, but they have a really hard time nuking and healing at the same time.

So, if you want to DD as a Dnc, don't expect to heal at the same time. You pop haste samba and saber dance, and say goodbye to heals. You use all of your resources to deal damage, and you should get really good damage output.

If you think your healing potential will benefit from the group more than your attack, then you organize your abilities differently, and support the group while doing less damage.

I don't think anyone would blame you for not being on top of the parse if you're healing or backup healing the group. In fact, they would blame you if you were able to be one of the strongest DDs while still being able to heal, because that would be clearly OP.

[Shenrien]

all I saw was DNC and I had closed it.

[Thiefami]

I don't like the idea.

DNC really doesn't need more damage capabilities. We are supposed to be weak[er] in combat. We are resilient as it is, and with the right equips you do decent damage, but we need unique ways to continue to support the party.

Fact we are so evasive, AND have the ability to heal ourselves for huge numbers is a big reason we shouldn't become more combat ready. I do think we should be able to support our parties more. Setting dancer up in a long run, and not making it into another 387249872349823 melee choice.


A million things i'd like to see added to the job before anything youve suggested.

I'd like to see the affects of Saberdance (separate from sambas) affect party. Perhaps not to the same degree, but increases double attack rate. Same with Fandance, increase damage mitigation at a set % as long as the dancers have these abilities on.

Possibly a Crit dance that operates in the same.



I think dancer should gain another set of buffs to their arsenal, but a mage set instead of just healing / samba type melee support

*waltz II and III (split accordingly please)

*MP waltz

*a regen waltz

*a flourish that enhances magic acc of the next offensive spell or song effect cast upon enemy target.

*a magic flourish that dazes enemy for a short time. While in daze target takes additional % of magic damage to spells.

*A physical flourish that dazes enemy for a short time. While in daze monsters take additional % of weaponskill damage.

*A flourish that sets the next casted spell as a "Magic Burst"

[urat]

I'd like to see the affects of Saberdance (separate from sambas) affect party. Perhaps not to the same degree, but increases double attack rate. Same with Fandance, increase damage mitigation at a set % as long as the dancers have these abilities on.

Possibly a Crit dance that operates in the same.



I think dancer should gain another set of buffs to their arsenal, but a mage set instead of just healing / samba type melee support

*waltz II and III (split accordingly please)

*MP waltz

*a regen waltz

*a flourish that enhances magic acc of the next offensive spell or song effect cast upon enemy target.

*a magic flourish that dazes enemy for a short time. While in daze target takes additional % of magic damage to spells.

*A physical flourish that dazes enemy for a short time. While in daze monsters take additional % of weaponskill damage.

*A flourish that sets the next casted spell as a "Magic Burst"

I really really like the idea of a Magic bursting flourish and the damage bonus dazes, though tbh one could argue isnt that exactly what box step and stutter step do?

Regen waltz/refresh waltz we already have drain/aspir samba, so itd be a bit redundant to add those. I would prefer to see effort put into other areas, but I wouldn't complain about a refresh waltz. Hello party invites!

As for saber dance / fan dance, Id like to see the next tier of merits really build on these job abilities.

While under saber dance, sambas become enhanced. Drain samba actually, you know, drains the monster, aspir becomes more potent and haste samba gets +5 or something to it, maybe thats a bit much but you get the gist.

As for Fan dance, I do feel its a pretty solid JA already. Maybe allow you to merit on Waltz potency+ to it when its in effect.

Other things I myself would love to see for Dancer while we're on that topic:

Ability, through merits later, to increase our maximum finishes

Drain samba to actually drain



As for Dynes, I feel it could add a new facet to dancer as a party member, because right now when the party is going to choose between me and a bard, they choose bard. If they can choose between me and a sam, they'll choose sam. There's no spot that we fit into. Dancer is one of the jobs that gets picked last because it can't deal decent damage without millions of gil worth of gear, our buffs are weaker than other buff jobs, and are heals are decent but not capable of supporting the whole party, once again, without tonnes of expensive and hard to obtain gear.

Maybe with some math work we'll get to see if presto is buffing our steps up enough to put us par with bard...

[Yugl]

SE is already married; gtfo.

[The_OG_Nelta]

People still try? >_>

[Sho]

DNC is one of the jobs that got the most out of this recent update, in job abilities, traits and gear. Asking for anything more at the moment is just silly...

[cassiraa]

DNC is one of the jobs that got the most out of this recent update, in job abilities, traits and gear. Asking for anything more at the moment is just silly...

Quoting this.


I'm pretty much hearing you as a WHM saying 'I know we got afflatus misery, but I still am not an effective magic damage dealer, I can cast holy but it's more effective for me to use my MP curing. Please give me more offensive options on this job that is designed to cure, buff, and debuff"

Like I said in the random question thread, this is a good idea for a job. But DNC isn't that job.

[kittycatrag]

Hmmm I don't think those JA would help me DD low or high level mobs. Something that trades our speed and evasion for damage against high level mobs would be cool though.

The lowest development cost would be just having JAs learned through trial of the magians quests. Unless it gets people to play more and pay more, it isn't worth the effort. dnc is a minority or special interest group :E

[urat]

Hmmm I don't think those JA would help me DD low or high level mobs. Something that trades our speed and evasion for damage against high level mobs would be cool though.

The lowest development cost would be just having JAs learned through trial of the magians quests. Unless it gets people to play more and pay more, it isn't worth the effort. dnc is a minority or special interest group :E

Tarentella, Dancer 85

Dramatically reduces evasion to increase accuracy and critical hit rate

?

[Eole]

You seem to have put a lot of effort into this and it was pleasant to read; you made me want to level Dancer and get these abilities, lol!
I think it's an interesting idea and you should send it to Square-Enix!

Since you ask for contributions :

Rapid Fire ★★☆☆☆
Performs 5 highly accurate attacks in quick succession, lowers opponents accuracy
cost: 50 TP
Requirement:
Observe 100 Slipstreams

Unless it doesn't give TP back or it has a long Recast this will be a Loop.

Exhaustion
Performs a stressful attack, reduce enemy attack speed and diseases it.
Cost: 40 TP
Requirement:
???

[Rocl]

I want you to fucking kill yourself.