Rdm/Nin magic reduction gear

[Mylliana]

Hello, I have been browsing AH and rare/ex gear on wiki, and have been trying to decide what is best for an overall gear set to reduce magic based damage. So I have the following questions

1. Excluding specific elemental resists (which will be asked about further down) what would be best gear for a rdm trying to reduce dmg from a wyrm or other such NM.

2. Kirin's wind attacks are magical correct? Why does the damage seem so random on them, even with lots of mnd/mdb/magic dmg%- i still take more sometimes then a random DD getting hit by 1.

3. At which point does Magic Defense Bonus, and flat magic dmg% taken- (Merman's Ring) equal out? MDB+2 or magic damage taken -4%?

4. Finally, At which point does MND or specific element+ become better then MDB or magic dmg%- ? Wind +10 or Magic damage -4% for a wind based attack,

Ty for your responses

~Myl

[Genosync]

Hello, I have been browsing AH and rare/ex gear on wiki, and have been trying to decide what is best for an overall gear set to reduce magic based damage. So I have the following questions

1. Excluding specific elemental resists (which will be asked about further down) what would be best gear for a rdm trying to reduce dmg from a wyrm or other such NM.

Magic Damage Taken %-? ... it's more reliable than resists because you still have to actually resist to have the damage reduced >.>;

2. Kirin's wind attacks are magical correct? Why does the damage seem so random on them, even with lots of mnd/mdb/magic dmg%- i still take more sometimes then a random DD getting hit by 1.

Are we talking Aeroga, or his WSes, or what?

Aeroga, the number of targets hit reduces the damage to each target (and it eventually caps out, it's on failwiki in the calculating magic damage topic)

WSes, it's all random crap and stat calculations and other things we'll never be able to get a complete handle on. But, like other mobs on failwiki, if you look at the mob information, it'll tell you exactly what the damage type is and sometimes a little bit more for each WS.

3. At which point does Magic Defense Bonus, and flat magic dmg% taken- (Merman's Ring) equal out? MDB+2 or magic damage taken -4%?

Pretty sure they're exactly the same... but again, if you've been looking on teh wikis for other stuff, there's articles on this too... and you'd find the information in the calculating magic damage guide, once again.

4. Finally, At which point does MND or specific element+ become better then MDB or magic dmg%- ? Wind +10 or Magic damage -4% for a wind based attack

This is what frustrated me enough to post, and made me actually want to bother to type the rest of the stuff out.

Excuse the big text, but time to crush a common misconception that started at NA PC release and took a long time to fix inside most people's heads:

MND only affects, in terms of spell damage dealt and taken, White-type Magic such as Holy and Banish.

INT affects both black magic damage dealt, and taken. Ninjutsu too. Check it out if you want.

That being said, you also don't seem to understand what 'Element+' on equipment exactly does. This increases your character's affinity to that element, which makes you (if it's positive anyway) have a higher chance of resisting magic of that type. It is not a flat reduction in damage taken of that element, it is only a higher chance to resist. That being said, if you do resist, it cuts the damage in half at the first resist, which is pretty good (if the resist actually procs), but keep in mind that resisting magic takes a lot more things into consideration than just this. Each resist cuts the damage from the last resist by half, so you go 1/2>1/4>1/8>1/16 and I forgot if you can get 32'd but meh, you won't probably go past a 1/8th on a mob that's worth a damn anyway (and 1/8th is pretty lucky).

So it's like going to Vegas and gambling with your HP, while Magic Defense/Magic Damage Taken %- is putting your money in the stock market (when it's not sucking hardcore).

[OctavoGilgamesh]

So it's like going to Vegas and gambling with your HP, while Magic Defense/Magic Damage Taken %- is putting your money in the stock market (when it's not sucking hardcore).

I wish my investments were as safe as mdb

[Genosync]

Well, maybe using a bank as the analogy is better, but sometimes you actually get a decent return from stocks (and over the course of time, a better one than a lot of other options).

[Octavious]

search function is friendly <3 here's a few topics that might help.

Resist Specific
M.D.B. Specific

...and wierd graph from some guys signiture:Click Click

[Tricen]

I thought MND helped with MDB or something to that effect?

[Genosync]

I thought MND helped with MDB or something to that effect?

-.- MND only affects White Magic, INT only affects Black Magic....

Common misconception from all the way in 2003.

[Tricen]

I thought MND helped with MDB or something to that effect?

-.- MND only affects White Magic, INT only affects Black Magic....

Common misconception from all the way in 2003.

I mean, MND affects damage taken from spells in general? Is there some evidence or whatever for it?

[RKenshin]

I wouldn't say MND has no effect on damage taken, while it won't actually reduce the damage by x amount it is believed to increase the chances to resist damage, no? In which case, it would still be a form of reducing magic damage taken. Just through resisting more.

[Genosync]

I thought MND helped with MDB or something to that effect?

-.- MND only affects White Magic, INT only affects Black Magic....

Common misconception from all the way in 2003.

I mean, MND affects damage taken from spells in general? Is there some evidence or whatever for it?

I'd go and get some first hand data for you, but I don't play anymore, so you can either check the wiki articles on magic damage or go try it out yourself.

orrrrrrrrr

don't look and believe me

Your choice. MND affects white stuff, INT affects black stuff. MND affects holy bolt crap, INT affects ninjutsu. etc etc.

Increase Caster MND -> Increased dmg of white magic damage spells, increases potency of white-type enfeebles
Increase Target MND -> Lessens damage received from white magic damage spells, thought to (but not completely proven and not easily possible to prove) increase resistance to status effects. (I personally did not hold the opinion it increased resistance to statuses, take that as you will, it's not proven with 100% accurate data either way)

Increase Caster INT -> Increased dmg of black magic damage spells and allows the tier multiplier bonus for spells that use it (I think it's just III, IV, AM, AM2, forgot if II had a multiplier). Basically, as long as the caster's INT is over a certain value for the mob (based usually on the mob's INT, but yeah, it's there) you get the bonus--if not, you don't get the bonus. So the Thunder IV damage you're seeing is actually getting a 2.0 tier multiplier--and if your INT isn't high enough versus the target, you lose the multiplier and your damage is (or has a chance, forgot if it was guaranteed or not or whatever) cut in half... which is exactly what happens if you get resisted, so sometimes people can't really tell exactly what's going on with their casts (this is typically seen on Kirin amongst other things). Also thought increase the accuracy of black magic enfeebles by some, or other effects on said enfeebling spells (I think it increases the accuracy of sleep, personally, but it's completely unproven and only based on my personal experiences with gear setups anyway).
Increase Target INT -> Lowered damage of black magic damage spells, can eliminate tier multiplier, and yeah, that's it.

anything else?

edit: And ruke, go take some runs at it and you'll see that MND really only affects white magic damage. Would be nice if MND and INT both did stuff for reducing black magic damage, because then I'd have been dragging around full errant everywhere.

[Suiram]

I wouldn't say MND has no effect on damage taken, while it won't actually reduce the damage by x amount it is believed to increase the chances to resist damage, no? In which case, it would still be a form of reducing magic damage taken. Just through resisting more.

I know that we've discussed this before, but I guess my own view is worth reiterating. Some people will swear up and down that target's MND affects resist rates ("I cast shock on mobs as I levelled up BLM and I found I got resisted less,") while others will swear up and down that target's INT affects resist rates ("I cast burn on mobs as I levelled up BLM and I found I got resisted less,") while others will say with the same degree of certainty that neither has any effect at all. In light of that, since nobody has ever done a substantial amount of tests, one should either just go with their own beliefs, or go with INT since it seems as likely to have an effect as anything else, and even if it doesn't it'll at least reduce the unresisted damage on black magic spells and many magic-based TP moves.

Note this isn't to say that the caster's INT doesn't have an effect on magic accuracy, I believe it's pretty well-established at this point that it does, although how INT compares with skill and macc bonuses are a similarly muddled question, although not one that really pertains to the OP's concerns.

[RKenshin]

I don't mean in a damage per damage sense, I mean as far as resisting certain attacks go.

Not to beat the dead horse or bring speculation into it, but while WHM will normally take just as much damage as anyone else normally does from AoE in the tank PT... I tend to see them resisting more than anyone else too. And the WHMs I know of usually say the same thing.

However, I've never seen any testing to directly support or counter this... And it'd likely be pretty annoying and time consuming to figure out with certainty. But, seeing as that hasn't happened, it's still speculation that no one can really say one way or another right now?

[Genosync]

I wouldn't say MND has no effect on damage taken, while it won't actually reduce the damage by x amount it is believed to increase the chances to resist damage, no? In which case, it would still be a form of reducing magic damage taken. Just through resisting more.

I know that we've discussed this before, but I guess my own view is worth reiterating. Some people will swear up and down that target's MND affects resist rates ("I cast shock on mobs as I levelled up BLM and I found I got resisted less,") while others will swear up and down that target's INT affects resist rates ("I cast burn on mobs as I levelled up BLM and I found I got resisted less,") while others will say with the same degree of certainty that neither has any effect at all. In light of that, since nobody has ever done a substantial amount of tests, one should either just go with their own beliefs, or go with INT since it seems as likely to have an effect as anything else, and even if it doesn't it'll at least reduce the unresisted damage on black magic spells and many magic-based TP moves.

Note this isn't to say that the caster's INT doesn't have an effect on magic accuracy, I believe it's pretty well-established at this point that it does, although how INT compares with skill and macc bonuses are a similarly muddled question, although not one that really pertains to the OP's concerns.

I'm still personally very, very on the side of INT having a ridiculously small to no effect on magic accuracy (for nukes). Resist is such a tricksy subject to get into, and it takes a lot of data (which I no longer actually have, and since I don't play now I can't actually get again) and time and the gear to do. Plus you still have the randomness in the system to deal with, and overall it's just not worth the time.

I'd also, after testing and using the gear for a while, put Magic Skill on the same level in terms of accuracy as Weapon Skill, where a level of Weapon Skill is only equal to... what, ~0.7acc? or something. Yeah, I'd think about magic skill levels in the same way, especially after using things like Morrigan's Coronal, Mitts and Nashira Pants on BLM (instead of druid slops for eleskills) and noticing what was going on in terms of resists. That ToAU ring was epic too, and I'd Head Butt in M.Crown, Mitts, Nashira Slops, and that ToAU magic ring and the only way stun didn't proc was when the mob is completely resistant to it, chariot boss in salvage, really super high level mob (read: hnm), or I missed the attack anyway. While on the subject, I think that Magic Accuracy (as well as the BLU magic skill in general) affects the accuracy of physical spell secondary effects. But I'm rambling at this point.

I guess I'll finally say it because I don't play anymore, and was scared to say it while I was playing because I didn't feel like getting flamed the hell out of for it then. 1 MACC on equip > 1 magic skill level for accuracy imo. BLU physical damage is a different story of course, but not for landing the secondary effects.

And yeah, I guess it's still speculation, but it's speculation under the resisting sense, which just gets tied in with all the '+Element' gear in the 'you might get damage lowered' category, instead of the flat MDB/MDmg%- category.

I can guarantee you it doesn't fit in the latter, at least.

[Suiram]

I don't mean in a damage per damage sense, I mean as far as resisting certain attacks go.

Not to beat the dead horse or bring speculation into it, but while WHM will normally take just as much damage as anyone else normally does from AoE in the tank PT... I tend to see them resisting more than anyone else too. And the WHMs I know of usually say the same thing.

However, I've never seen any testing to directly support or counter this... And it'd likely be pretty annoying and time consuming to figure out with certainty. But, seeing as that hasn't happened, it's still speculation that no one can really say one way or another right now?

Yeah, more or less. I mean, parsing a WHM's resist rate compared to a job with less MND would be a reasonable way to gauge whether the MND thing has more merit than anything else, but the problem arises with the lack of control in situations where you are attempting just to eyeball it. For instance a WHM is going to have MDB+16 at the start, will probably be wearing some gear that has INT on it, and will almost always have shell up while it might have been dispelled off a tank, to where it may appear to an untrained eye that they are resisting often when in fact they are just taking less unresisted damage.

I have had an idea for a while to get a MNK to dust off their Chi Blast set and a BLM and stand around taking -ga damage from the same worm and see if over time one resists more or less than the other, but with only a 1/5 chance for the worm to even use a particular spell and the number of casts you'd need to get a sufficient sample it just seems too daunting lol

[Seditedi]

I'm pretty sure MND can affect damage taken from black magic and the like, but it doesn't do it directly like INT does.

MND definitely increases player resistance.

[Tajin]

Kirin does not use Aeroga (nitpicking yeah, yeah)

Edit: forgot the name of his wind based move, he's got deadly hold, tail something, heat breath, stone/stonega and ...

[RKenshin]

Whirlwind (wind) and Sandstorm (earth).

[Mylliana]

Sorry if I upset you asking some questions, Genosync, I came to ask because I assumed this would be the best forum to ask questions regarding it. Anyways~

Yes i know that you have to actually resist to have dmg reduced, however, i would bet that +50 wind would, in an extended period of time, reduce dmg taken from wind based spells/ws then -1% mgc dmg taken. Which is why i asked for an overall best set. For 1 attack i probably would go all mdb/magic dmg-, which dont work the same way but both help.

Kinda like adding +6% crit over 5 attack improves your overall dps.. you have to actually crit to do the extra dmg (but it happens more often) same w/ the specific element+ (which i do know what it actually does)

And i did read up on wiki, but i couldnt find an test/comparision between a value of MDB and a value of magic dmg taken- to find where 1 would be better then the other, like -4% magic damage taken is probably better then MDB+1, but what about vs MDB+10?

The MND belief is a matter of opinion, there was a post from a ninja who used MDB/MND/Fire gear for tanking tiamat, got hit by inferno bllast for around 100, i forget where that thread is though, or i would have just got there. Im looking for cold hard facts that have been beaten to death. Not opinions that each ppl will swear up and down each side is true

and ty Octavious, i will check those posts out

*edit* and yes, the wind tp attacks i were talking about were Whirlwind and Sandstorm

[Mylliana]

Heh, and theres the nin one i was looking for, ty Octavious

*edit* newp nvm, first post threw me off, not the nin one i was looking for x.x

[Suiram]

There's no simple answer when comparing a larger change in MDB than magic damage taken when you're not at the cap, aside from calculating the actual difference in your particular situation. Just to evaluate the question of magic damage taken -4% versus MDB+10,

Under the least beneficial conditions, magic damage taken -4% is going to reduce the damage you take by 3.9% (less than 4 only due to the fact that it's calculated as fraction of 256). Under the most beneficial conditions, it's going to reduce the damage you take by 7.2%.

Under the conditions most beneficial to MDB+10, it will reduce the damage you take by 9.1%, at 28 current MDB (before the +10 piece) it's going to reduce by 7.2% as well, equal to the best case scenario for the -4% ring, and to be worse than the worst-case damage taken -4% piece would require an unattainable level of pre-existing MDB. So really, assuming that like most you are getting a mixed variety of MDB gear, traits, and buffs, and a mixed bonus of magic damage taken gear and buffs, your best option is to calculate it yourself (divide old mdb by new mdb and 1 - new magic damage taken by 1 - old magic damage taken) or just try both and see which mitigates more.