Futsuno Mitama VS. Hagun/Amano

[Kaeko]

This debate sort of started in the AV thread on Advanced but I felt it got lost within the spammage of the thread. Going to start by quoting the most relevant post about it in the AV thread...

Quote by Contract, who has both Amano and Futsuno

It's not exactly difficult to test the power of weapons against each other. I did Gekko to JoL about 5 times with both GKs at 300 TP, every time with minuetx2 and a fresh herculean etude for about +85 STR and ~650 attack. Every single Gekko I did with the Futsuno did more than Amano, and the fact that I was getting 21 TP/swing with Futsuno makes me think it's pretty clear that it would do more damage to any mid-high/high defense HNM, where Kaiten does 500 or less most of the time.

Also, I know Amano is worlds better for meriting and any event where I can use Kaiten effectively like Einherjar/Limbus/Dynamis, simply because of the huge 2.5 procs and Kaiten's big damage. Futsuno is easily the second best GK in the game though, possibly aside from the mythic GK, but I doubt that one is better.

P.S. Maybe for your average multi-hit WS or 1-hit WSes without a 50%+ STR mod, 8 STR would be close to 2 base damage. Gekko however has a 75% STR mod, and for that 8 STR does alot more than 4 base damage.

I'm sort of interested in this because our LS needs to determine the estimated value of Futsuno.

Couple of things I'm hoping for...
- Actual accounts of the comparison (rare I know)
- Math or Logic as to why 1 is better than the other

In particular, how does the +8 Store TP and delay on Futsuno affect various TP builds?

How does it's +8 STR latent (when using a WS) match versus Hagun's TP bonus and Amano's higher base damage?

What situations would you personally use which?

Any other reasonings as to why you would use 1 over the other in various situations like endgame and meripo?

I'm not a melee wizard so please bear with me.

Thanks!

[VZX]

+8 STR roughly translate to 4~5 base damage when you WSing, so it's roughly the same as Amano's base damage.

The special thing about Futsuno is its +8 STP on top of 480 delay allows you not to rely to any suboptimal STP pieces required for 5-hit build (Usukane sune-ate + Rajas + Sword itself already give you 5-hit build)

But the thing is Hagun gives 0.3125 higher fTP than normal GKT when you are WSing at 100% (and even more when you release it with TP closer to 200%). This makes WS damage from Hagun is roughly 20%~33% higher than normal GKT with similar base damage.

In merit PT, considering aggresive SAMs have about 35~40% damage from melee swing and the rest is from WS, Hagun got an advantage here. 1 reason why the damage distribution as such is due to meditate. And for /DRG, it's Jump, High Jump, and the DA proc from those 2 JA can be significant.

As for the calculation itself, I don't want really to bother since we're comparing a couple different aspect here. Probably the best one I can come with is : "Assuming the same amount of haste given, a perfect 7 cycle of TP->WS from futsuno mitama is the same as a perfect 6 cycle of TP->WS from 450 delay GKT"

EDIT : did some calculation a bit, there might be some error. Please recheck it:
6 Cycle of TP -> WS Hagun = 7 Cycle of TP->WS Futsuno
Assume : +8STR from Futsuno give fSTR+2 and WSC+4

Hagun : 6*(TP + WS)
= 6*[ 5*(75 + fSTR)*pDIF1 + (75 + fSTR + WSC)*1.972*pDIF2 ]
= 30*(75 + fSTR)*pDIF1 + 6*(75 + fSTR + WSC)*1.972*pDIF2
= (2250 + 30fSTR)*pDIF1 + (450 + 6fSTR + 6WSC)*1.972*pDIF2
= (2250 + 30fSTR)*pDIF1 + (887.4 + 11.832fSTR + 11.832WSC)*pDIF2

Futsuno: 7*(TP + WS)
= 7*[ 4*(75 + fSTR+2)*pDIF1 + (75 + fSTR + WSC)*1.972*pDIF2 ]
= 28*(84 + fSTR+2)*pDIF1 + 7*(84 + fSTR+2 + WSC+4)*1.660*pDIF2
= (2352 + 28fSTR + 56)*pDIF1 + (588 + 7fSTR+14 + 7WSC+28)*1.660*pDIF2
= (2352 + 28fSTR + 56)*pDIF1 + (976.08 + 11.62fSTR+23.24 +

11.62WSC+46.48)*pDIF2
= (2352 + 28fSTR + 56)*pDIF1 + (1045.8 + 11.62fSTR + 11.62WSC)*pDIF2

TP : Hagun vs Futsuno Mitama
Hagun : (2250 + 30fSTR)*pDIF1
Futsuno : (2352 + 28fSTR + 56)*pDIF1
Futsuno win by : (158 + 2fSTR)*pDIF1

WS : Hagun vs Futsuno Mitama
Hagun : (887.4 + 11.832fSTR + 11.832WSC)*pDIF2
Futsuno : (1045.8 + 11.62fSTR + 11.62WSC)*pDIF2

158.4*pDIF2 vs 0.212(fSTR+WSC)*pDIF2

Assume total STR=160
fSTR=16 WSC=99
0.212(16+99) < 158.4
Futsuno win by 134.02*pDIF2

[Nirokun!]

I'm not a melee wizard so please bear with me.

Thanks!

You're so adorable (*'-')

[*Shinzon*]

Spoiler: show

+8 STR roughly translate to 4~5 base damage when you WSing, so it's roughly the same as Amano's base damage.

The special thing about Futsuno is its +8 STP on top of 480 delay allows you not to rely to any suboptimal STP pieces required for 5-hit build (Usukane sune-ate + Rajas + Sword itself already give you 5-hit build)

But the thing is Hagun gives 0.3125 higher fTP than normal GKT when you are WSing at 100% (and even more when you release it with TP closer to 200%). This makes WS damage from Hagun is roughly 20%~33% higher than normal GKT with similar base damage.

In merit PT, considering aggresive SAMs have about 35~40% damage from melee swing and the rest is from WS, Hagun got an advantage here. 1 reason why the damage distribution as such is due to meditate. And for /DRG, it's Jump, High Jump, and the DA proc from those 2 JA can be significant.

As for the calculation itself, I don't want really to bother since we're comparing a couple different aspect here. Probably the best one I can come with is : "Assuming the same amount of haste given, a perfect 7 cycle of TP->WS from futsuno mitama is the same as a perfect 6 cycle of TP->WS from 450 delay GKT"

EDIT : did some calculation a bit, there might be some error. Please recheck it:
6 Cycle of TP -> WS Hagun = 7 Cycle of TP->WS Futsuno
Assume : +8STR from Futsuno give fSTR+2 and WSC+4

Hagun : 6*(TP + WS)
= 6*[ 5*(75 + fSTR)*pDIF1 + (75 + fSTR + WSC)*1.972*pDIF2 ]
= 30*(75 + fSTR)*pDIF1 + 6*(75 + fSTR + WSC)*1.972*pDIF2
= (2250 + 30fSTR)*pDIF1 + (450 + 6fSTR + 6WSC)*1.972*pDIF2
= (2250 + 30fSTR)*pDIF1 + (887.4 + 11.832fSTR + 11.832WSC)*pDIF2

Futsuno: 7*(TP + WS)
= 7*[ 4*(75 + fSTR+2)*pDIF1 + (75 + fSTR + WSC)*1.972*pDIF2 ]
= 28*(84 + fSTR+2)*pDIF1 + 7*(84 + fSTR+2 + WSC+4)*1.660*pDIF2
= (2352 + 28fSTR + 56)*pDIF1 + (588 + 7fSTR+14 + 7WSC+28)*1.660*pDIF2
= (2352 + 28fSTR + 56)*pDIF1 + (976.08 + 11.62fSTR+23.24 +

11.62WSC+46.48)*pDIF2
= (2352 + 28fSTR + 56)*pDIF1 + (1045.8 + 11.62fSTR + 11.62WSC)*pDIF2

TP : Hagun vs Futsuno Mitama
Hagun : (2250 + 30fSTR)*pDIF1
Futsuno : (2352 + 28fSTR + 56)*pDIF1
Futsuno win by : (158 + 2fSTR)*pDIF1

WS : Hagun vs Futsuno Mitama
Hagun : (887.4 + 11.832fSTR + 11.832WSC)*pDIF2
Futsuno : (1045.8 + 11.62fSTR + 11.62WSC)*pDIF2

158.4*pDIF2 vs 0.212(fSTR+WSC)*pDIF2

Assume total STR=160
fSTR=16 WSC=99
0.212(16+99) < 158.4
Futsuno win by 134.02*pDIF2

I like the way you worded that. I personally however believe that wouldn't the overall benefit, when not saving to 300, even closer to 150-200 from the Hagun still be better in conventional situations outside merit parties for instance, dynamis and einherjar.

[Rajah]

Just as I thought. You must be on top of your game, aggressive, and spamming ws at 100 tp to beat hagun. Any bit of tp saved past 100 is going to equate in considerably more ws damage for hagun, whereas futsuno would see less gain. (see: YGK ftp scaling)

[Kaeko]

So merit situations or situations fighting normal-merit type mobs (like say Einherjar or Dynamis, it would be difficult to beat Hagun (and certainly Amano). What about specifically high defense mobs or high end HNMs?

You're so adorable (*'-')

!/blush

[FailureMidgard]

VZX's math looks mostly correct, I do believe Futsuno will outperform Hagun in a perfect situation. However, it will not outperform Hagun to the extent that his math says. Meditate will close the gap for Hagun a bit, as well any deviation from a perfect situation (as some posters have already said).

That being said, I have no clue what the post Kaeko quoted has to do with anything. Why would an Amano user ever save to 300TP? Yes, if an Amano user saves to 300 TP, then Y/G/K from Futsuno can beat it...on the other hand, if the person isn't retarded and WSes at 100 TP, he should still blow Futsuno out of the water. The biggest benefit of Amano in my eyes is the fact that you get a near-300 TP WS at 100TP. I don't care what you are fighting, 300TP Kaiten is just stupid.

He goes on to say that Futsuno may be the Mythic, which really depends how that double attack proc works, but if it is like current double attack weapons, then the Mythic will be either first or 2nd best weapon in the game (with Amano as it's only possible competition).

In conclusion:
Amano beats out Futsuno, no math is even needed, the difference will be huge.
Futsuno beats out Hagun by ~3-5%. Closer to 3 in reality, 5 in a perfect situation.
The Mythic should easily beat Futsuno and Hagun, and will compete with Amano for the best GK.

So merit situations or situations fighting normal-merit type mobs (like say Einherjar or Dynamis, it would be difficult to beat Hagun (and certainly Amano). What about specifically high defense mobs or high end HNMs?

If your Sam is not meleeing to gain TP, and only using meditate, Hagun will beat out Futsuno, otherwise, it should remain roughly the same.

[Veyron]

So far it's everything I could have hoped for really lol. I always wanted a Gkt that was better than Hagun but maybe not quite as good as Amano, but from what I've been playing with, it has potential to be leaps & bounds ahead of Hagun and possibly be on par if not slightly ahead of Amano for Hnm, but not in an exp situation.

Reasoning for that being, Kaiten isn't based just on Str, but focuses alot on Atk too from what I understand, which makes it less potent on Hnm. But there's no doubt in my mind, Amano all the way for anything that you can bust some balls on with Kaiten. Although, everything about Futsuno screams USE ME ON HNMS! The 5-hit right out of the box with my current gear (Tping in Usu Feet/Rajas/Brutal & Wsing in Hachiman Sune-Ate +1) gives you 20.2 Tp/hit, which also syncs it up to Meditate and makes it even more useful with that in my eyes. Another little perk is the +8Dex which converts into +6Acc, can't have enough Acc. Ever. EVER.

Not even going to go into the DoT aspect of it minus the base dmg being huge compared to Hagun (1 dmg higher then Onimaru, 4 less than Amano), plus the small Acc bonus never hurts.

About the latent, I'm really not too sure about it yet since I JUST got my hands on it & haven't had a chance to test it (whizzed right into a Bcnm then Exp pt after x2 Prudence/x2 JoL/x2 AV tonight) but you bet your ass I'll be playing with it much much more!

My post from KI Sam forums.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/6512/futsunoyo8.jpg

[isladar]

It looks ridiculously hot.

[Cratylus]

Do you have Rana? If so how's it do on that?

[Contract]

That being said, I have no clue what the post Kaeko quoted has to do with anything. Why would an Amano user ever save to 300TP? Yes, if an Amano user saves to 300 TP, then Y/G/K from Futsuno can beat it...on the other hand, if the person isn't retarded and WSes at 100 TP, he should still blow Futsuno out of the water. The biggest benefit of Amano in my eyes is the fact that you get a near-300 TP WS at 100TP. I don't care what you are fighting, 300TP Kaiten is just stupid.

I never said I was saving 300 TP for Kaiten, I'm well aware TP doesn't affect the damage it does. Doesn't really matter how much TP I save, fact of the matter is unless I have double minuets and really expensive food active, Kaiten isn't going to do anywhere close to Gekko's damage at any TP value. And even with all that, Gekko almost always does significantly more to any HNM with relatively high defense(JoL, Cerberus, Wyrms, etc.).

At 100 TP, Futsuno still does more damage with Gekko than Amano, even if just barely. However, that extra damage paired with having a 5-hit setup with Futsuno makes it superior to Amano for HNMs, but nothing else.

P.S. If you still think saving 300 TP is stupid even for Gekko, I'd have to disagree due to the fact that I have no trouble getting 300 TP ready in 60 seconds or less, so I never have to wait to SA.

[VZX]

VZX's math looks mostly correct, I do believe Futsuno will outperform Hagun in a perfect situation. However, it will not outperform Hagun to the extent that his math says. Meditate will close the gap for Hagun a bit, as well any deviation from a perfect situation (as some posters have already said).

Meditate will help Hagun users more than Futsuno users.
Jump/High Jump will help Futsuno users more than Hagun users due to higher portion TP return and the higher jump damage itself.

Which one is the winner still look like a tie to me.

[Veyron]

@Contract, With Haste & March x2, I get 100 Tp in 15 seconds with Futsuno; after Ws, 12 seconds, (this is assuming no misses). You'll easily get 300 Tp by the 60 second mark with minimal misses

Btw VZX, your sig is so true ;_; 28 runs before my 35 feet dropped!

[ringthree]

Doesn't really matter how much TP I save, fact of the matter is unless I have double minuets and really expensive food active, Kaiten isn't going to do anywhere close to Gekko's damage at any TP value.

This is the first time I have heard this suggested. I believe it has been pretty roundly proven through parsing that, at least on merit mobs, Kaiten has far better results than even Hagun Gekko.

At 100 TP, Futsuno still does more damage with Gekko than Amano, even if just barely. However, that extra damage paired with having a 5-hit setup with Futsuno makes it superior to Amano for HNMs, but nothing else.

I think you are making far too large of an assumption here. The difference between a 480 5-hit build and a 450 6-hit build is only 300 delay per 100TP, this definitely builds up over time, but you are ignoring other factors such as Amano's double damage proc, and also, I believe, overestimating the damage difference between Kaiten and Gekko.

[Rajah]

Seems to me he's just advertising a 75M sale.

You're not a complete relic samurai without one of these! It beats your amano's gekkos and completely replaces it for HNM! (do you need it?)

[Phraust]

This is the first time I have heard this suggested. I believe it has been pretty roundly proven through parsing that, at least on merit mobs, Kaiten has far better results than even Hagun Gekko.



I think you are making far too large of an assumption here. The difference between a 480 5-hit build and a 450 6-hit build is only 300 delay per 100TP, this definitely builds up over time, but you are ignoring other factors such as Amano's double damage proc, and also, I believe, overestimating the damage difference between Kaiten and Gekko.

I think he was speaking in reference to the HNM fights. With above average gear, and Double minuets, Courel Subs, I'm lucky if I can Kaiten JoL(Pre-update) for above 40. No I am not missing a zero, that's forty. Other HNM arent' so bad, but still a fraction of what YGK does. (Talking on the order of 4:1 to 6:1 deprending on teh mob...) I wrote an error report to SE lol... hoping they do something about it.

[Contract]

Yeah, I was only refering to HNMs where you can't effectively use Kaiten when I stated that Gekko would do more no matter your TP value. While meriting I wouldn't dream of doing Gekko considering Kaiten does 1500+ with 100 TP extremely often. Also, I realize that Amano has the 2.5 proc that could help it out-parse Futsuno, but on HNMs where you hit for 10-50 damage the 2.5 proc often only does about 100, so it's not that helpful.

For reference, on the same JoL that I was doing 1200-1450 Gekkos with Futsuno(300TP), I did a Kaiten for 805. 805 isn't bad at all, I was surprised actually, but I had Bison steak, 2 minuets, and both STR etudes active for it. Not to mention by the time my SA was ready I had accumulated 300 TP, which could have translated into 1200+ damage had I used Gekko instead. Yes, I could have done 1-2 WSes between sneak attacks for extra damage, but on an HNM like JoL they do really low damage without SA(300-550ish), and after about 5 or so WSes I pull hate after almost every Gekko I do anyways.

[FailureMidgard]

Yeah, I was only refering to HNMs where you can't effectively use Kaiten when I stated that Gekko would do more no matter your TP value. While meriting I wouldn't dream of doing Gekko considering Kaiten does 1500+ with 100 TP extremely often. Also, I realize that Amano has the 2.5 proc that could help it out-parse Futsuno, but on HNMs where you hit for 10-50 damage the 2.5 proc often only does about 100, so it's not that helpful.

For reference, on the same JoL that I was doing 1200-1450 Gekkos with Futsuno(300TP), I did a Kaiten for 805. 805 isn't bad at all, I was surprised actually, but I had Bison steak, 2 minuets, and both STR etudes active for it. Not to mention by the time my SA was ready I had accumulated 300 TP, which could have translated into 1200+ damage had I used Gekko instead. Yes, I could have done 1-2 WSes between sneak attacks for extra damage, but on an HNM like JoL they do really low damage without SA(300-550ish), and after about 5 or so WSes I pull hate after almost every Gekko I do anyways.

Uhhh, looking at your own numbers there, you'd do more damage with Kaiten over time...

[Contract]

I'm not sure what you mean. The one Kaiten I did on JoL did 805 damage, but I had to waste 300TP on it, which I could have used on Gekko for 1200+ damage. Also, like I said I had minuetx2 and STR etudex2, how often do you get that?

With just minuets, or better yet 1 minuet and 1 etude, Gekko would do about 300-500 more than Kaiten on average at 100 TP. Because I can obtain 300TP easily in time for every SA, and Kaiten does no more damage at 300TP than 100TP, Gekko is clearly the better WS for that situation, and Futsuno's Gekkos are stronger than Amano's.

[Clave]

Math-wise 300% Futsuno Gekkos should be pretty much the same as Amano 300% Gekkos. I'd still stick with Amano, as although you can't get a 5-hit with it you can easily have a 6-hit with it with 437 delay versus 480, + 2.5 proc +20 acc etc etc etc. Even then I'd still probably spam Kaiten given that I have proper attack buffs.