The New Standard

[Talisien]

It's my personal belief that the "BLM, INT, vs. MAB" thread somehow, shockingly, became the gold standard for Internet message boards with informative posts and lively discussion. For those of you that missed it because it was yet another retread about how magic damage formulas actually work in the game, here's the short version: An honest, but fairly clueless, guy tried to match up his nuke results in Ronfaure with the way the game is supposed to work according to the wiki formulas and established knowledge.

I hope everyone reading realizes why that guy would never even think to post his thread in Advanced due to the realities of old OR new Advanced. Because no, it's not Advanced. And therein, almost to a painfully palpable degree, lies the opportunity cost of Advanced's "spam protection."

This guy (Lahan) posts his question (along with some data showing how the numbers he's getting don't always line up with the information that posters point to as gospel) and he gets a response from someone named Suiram. I'll be honest, I didn't recognize Suiram's name, though I'd like to think I'd recognize most of the people around here who have useful information to share, but if my ignorance kept me reading curiously, to others it was an invitation to offer their own opinions, informed or not. Again, this is important, because the Standard forum doesn't discourage open discourse from its members with threats of banning or ridicule.

Some people respond, and eventually (stick with me, you'll enjoy this) someone tries to win the argument by quoting someone else with a more recognizable name (specifically a blog writer of some repute). And the original responder questions the authority of such a source, to which the person responds with typical Internet logic something along the lines of he's got a name, and you don't, so you must be wrong.

And then the blog author shows up.

*shock* I know, right! Who knew these guys actually read the forums like the rest of us. I thought they had little smart people conventions and laughed at us and wrote blogs like that Robonosto guy where he makes fun of everyone all the time for being hideously stupid.

So blog author responds and says to his champion, "I'm sorry sir, but the person you're arguing with is the true authority on this matter, and you should in fact heed their word not because of who they are, but because of the work they've done and the knowledge they possess." Or something similar.

And what results is a fairly short, but rather amazing, little bit of elucidation as people hear very smart people explain how their formulas and understandings actually interact with how the game really works when we hit "/ma Thunder IV <Wild Rabbit>". And maybe they learned something, and maybe they didn't (or maybe they followed the cheat sheet which had been turned into an Internet app) but the point is very simple -- this thread actually accomplished something.

A person without knowledge but with a desire to learn got into contact with the people who understood the game mechanics behind their issue, and learned a little bit about how their theories (which they had created, studied and mastered or some combination) interacted with the real game to produce the real results he was seeing in Ronfaure.

Someone actually learned something on the Internet.

---

That little story is why (in my opinion) the very next day or five we had a New Advanced, because that thread would NEVER, EVER have had a chance to exist, or blossom, from its <strike>newb</strike> innocent beginnings into the little treasure trove of information it became [in the old Advanced, the 'main' forum].

And now I get to read this frustrating thread ("so we have to be nice now?") in which mods argue what is and is not Advanced all over again all the while knowing that the New Advanced would kill that thread just as dead as the old. And I fear that even the honestly frustrated people like Cadsuane are missing the forest for the trees at this point so I wanted to explain very simply what the mods are missing (again, imo):

The main forum of this website shouldn't be the New Advanced, it should be the New Standard.

Advanced is the last vestige of the elitism that has choked the life out of this forum. And though it has been earned with the successes of those years, it results in a forum that does not encourage discussion, but rather stifles it. It results in cliques, and bans, and trolls, but worst of all, it results in stagnation and a dwindling membership, and a complete absence of the Game Designers in their new found attempt to reach out to the playing public. That should be the ultimate proof of failure, however lofty the ideals, that Zam in all its mind shattering idiocy should house Elmer's blog and get direct discussion from the Game Designers. That Zam should establish itself as a beacon for reasoned thought and open discourse is a travesty, but it is the ultimate validation of the democratization of information that is the ideal of the Internet.

tl;dr:
The reason Standard became more useful than Advanced was because it protected those who wished to voice their opinions, ask their questions, post topics, or give answers that were wrong only to be proven right by the very people that are intellectually curious enough to have researched the answer adequately.

The "New Advanced" is a sad, almost pathetic, vestige of an elitist attitude that is perceived negatively by almost all and serves no real purpose except to occlude information behind a veil of "Been there, done that" ennui. Instead the "New Standard", with a complete rescinding of the awful question of "Is this Advanced?" and its entire attitude, should become the flagship forum of this website in order to encourage more threads like "BLM, INT vs. MAB"; a shining example of the ultimate function of this forum and others like it.

[Marcicus]

I'm not gonna lie, I didn't even read the tl;dr version. What the hell.

[Greatguardian]

I'm in a merit party at the moment, or I'd write a more coherent response. In short, I agree with the OP.

[Silenka]

Agreed, gl getting real conversation started in this forum, it's pretty jarring to have the only place where people can actually discuss stuff without 20 derails a day suddenly up and disappear in favor of one huge section still labeled 'advanced'. I agreed that advanced was going nowhere as it was (after the rulechange to keep it civil), and I also agree that the difference between advanced and standard was very important. It was what made the BG forums unique as far as FFXI community discussion, and now it's gone.

[Xajii]

Agree. Standard was a lot better for pointed discussions and it kept so many douchebags from saying LOL SHIT IS SITUATIONAL or other stupid shit like that.

[ringthree]

I don't know. I think it's a new day and we can achieve new things.

If we can prevent people, myself included, from ruining threads we might be able to get back to basics.

Personally, I am going to look at it like something new and different and treat it as such. My short discussion with Sono on this led me to believe he wanted Advanced to keep the name as a distinction from other forums, not as a distinction within BG itself. I could have misinterpreted this, but I think it is a good idea to move forward with.

[Xetzu]

Is this Advanced?

[orson]

That Zam should establish itself as a beacon for reasoned thought and open discourse is a travesty, but it is the ultimate validation of the democratization of information that is the ideal of the Internet.

Just as a note not to make this a ZAM vs BG thread but ZAM is just as bad if not worse for discussion than BG. People will rate you down(lol) and cock ride there buddies terribly on ZAM. We have similar things here but it's not nearly the group of mindless sheep on ZAM that only listen to like 3-4 people as if they have the gospel truth, especially in some of the job forums.

[ringthree]

Just as a note not to make this a ZAM vs BG thread but ZAM is just as bad if not worse for discussion than BG. People will rate you down(lol) and cock ride there buddies terribly on ZAM. We have similar things here but it's not nearly the group of mindless sheep on ZAM that only listen to like 3-4 people as if they have the gospel truth, especially in some of the job forums.

I think he is more referencing the fact that Elmer works for ZAM now and that SE has an official contact with ZAM and not BG. I don't think he was saying that the quality of ZAM is better than BG.

[orson]

I think he is more referencing the fact that Elmer works for ZAM now and that SE has an official contact with ZAM and not BG. I don't think he was saying that the quality of ZAM is better than BG.

Ya guess that makes a bit more sense.

[Phraust]

Agreed, "Advanced" degraded into a 4chan-esque meme-fest whilst the real discussion was going on in the 'standard' section. There was one main difference though, and I am not sure is it was coincidence or what, but the advanced section previous to the standard section's inception was horribly tangent-ed. Which I will admit was mainly due to the "newbs" giving their "Ebon Panel" solutions to serious discussions, but a good portion was due to the "Shit's situational" crowd as well.

I really cannot find a reasonable explanation why those people disappeared from both sections for the most part... I think one causes the other, but in a 'chicken or egg' sort of way. When you end up knee-deep in newb feces... It gets just down right annoying, conversations end up circular or tossed to dead ends before anything can even start and its so easy to give up and try to be funny when you have nothign to add and you're hoping for progress. But I digress, that its even more annoying to have a mindless mass follow some blogger with a name, and squash any and all dissenters, and stifle progress as well.

C'est la vie... No matter which way the coin lands, its just a big bitch fest. As the old saying goes, "There's no such thing as a stupid question" just go ahead and ask. If you get shot down, just keep in mind that: hey, maybe its them that's the dipshit, not you. But for the love of god, do the work, back up your claims and ideas before you ask/tell.

[konoko]

i agree with the OP

[Greatguardian]

Personally, I am going to look at it like something new and different and treat it as such. My short discussion with Sono on this led me to believe he wanted Advanced to keep the name as a distinction from other forums, not as a distinction within BG itself. I could have misinterpreted this, but I think it is a good idea to move forward with.

This is what I'd gotten from it all, at first. It's only after I read some of the Moderator responses in the other thread that I started to get really discouraged. It is really quite tiring hearing the same rhetoric a thousand times over, and seeing the same information/testing quoted out of context by anyone with the reading comprehension of a 5th grader.

"This is advanced?", "Shit's situational", and every variation of "This is right because people say so, and even though you've asked a valid question with a large amount of actual data I will not reciprocate at all and leave you with a 1-line post".

Personally, I feel any OP which can present itself properly and thoughtfully (with the exception of obvious troll threads) should receive the same consideration from anyone who posts in it. Marcicus, earlier in this thread, is a shining example of what's wrong with Advanced.

[konoko]

replying to any thread without reading the OP should be bannable imo >.>

[Talisien]

I don't really mind people like Marcicus, or Xetzu, and I certainly don't think they should fear banning just because they ridicule a post. Now if they made a new topic about that, or trolled the hell out of a topic saying it over and over ...

But there's my point. Anarchy and a complete lack of mods would be a disaster; sometimes it does take someone saying, "This has been discussed ad nauseum, shut the fuck up until we find out something new," to make people stop spitballing and get back to what they were doing before they had too much fruit punch at lunch.

My ultimate point is that fear is the wrong answer here. Lahan (and all the others like him, myself included) might have thought twice about making his post in the 'New' Advanced, and even that slight chance to me is too high a cost to protect against spam or to keep the quality of posting high.

The quality of posts is ultimately an expression of the quality of the people who post on your forum, and I don't think people asking themselves "Is this Advanced?" will ever allow quality players to become better. I think it will just frighten them into going somewhere they feel more comfortable.

(Ringthree has it right about the zam thing by the way, thanks)

[Greatguardian]

It's not Marcicus or Xetzu saying it multiple times that derails a topic. It's everyone and their cousin saying it once, that makes a potentially good thread turn to junk.

Honestly, I could care less if the same topic (ie: Smn burning) was discussed ad nauseum. As long as something worth discussing intelligently was being brought to the table each time, that is. The ethics of Smn burning. The design and mechanics of Smn burning. Smn burning potential camps and camp testing. As long as it is actually being discussed, it's perfectly fine to me.

Mindlessly pointing out the search function (which is a retarded function in its own right), or referring legitimate questions to the RQT is just annoying. The inclination that anything that isn't "brand new" should not even be discussed is much more distressing, which is what I got from the other thread. Poring over information from 2006 and being unable to either make a new thread or respond to the old one for fear of Ban either way is ludicrous.

[Sonomaa]

so it sounds like if I renamed this forum Standard you guys would think its the best ever

[Spider-Dan]

I agree with the OP.

The quickest and easiest way to clearly and immediately establish the rules of conduct for the new forum (if I understand them correctly) is to call it The New Standard. That will immediately eliminate all the useless "This is Advanced?" garbage.

Consider that the reason why Standard overtook Advanced in quantity and quality of discussion is due SOLELY to the one difference between them: the rules. Standard's rules are simply more effective at promoting useful discussion than Advanced's are/were; dropping the rules that work for the rules that don't doesn't seem to make much sense.

Honestly, not to play the "if it ain't broke" card, but the old system was probably better. Advanced was still around as a vehicle for elitist drama and "BANISHED TO ZAM" nonsense, while Standard was free for open inquiry, even when a good chunk of it may have been stupid.

[Spider-Dan]

so it sounds like if I renamed this forum Standard you guys would think its the best ever

Pretty much.

[Sonomaa]

what if there was another forum entirely for Official News and this forum was for your vs questions

also I didnt even read the full OP entirely, just too long