Astral Burn Enmity

[Stellar]

My apologies if this has been mentioned countless times. Feel free to flame, disregard, or do whatever you feel is necessary to those who fall short in searching capabilities. Heh... Anyways..I was gone for a couple years and missed the whole discovery of what is now common knowledge and have a few questions about the specifics of how enmity works out, in order to keep the summoners alive between AF's...

So.. I'm under the assumption as the puller I will pick one mob which will be the summoner's target. Now, I will actually have to acquire hate and a ce/ve value on more than one, in order to link and/or aggro the multple different types of mobs available in the area. Np, the smn's/leech/cor/etc. won't see exp from the mobs I've touched as the puller. Now where my knowledge falls short as far as enmity specifics is how to keep the summoners safe.

Of course when I arrive, I have 50, 60, w/e mobs wacking on me for misses and 0's and assume I should have one mob CFH'd, which I've worked a decent amount of CE on and make this the Astral Flow target. My question is, after the astral flow and the proceeding release or death of the smn's avatar, at any point will those hateless (yet aggroed) mobs go after the low leveled group?

I wasn't sure and figured right after the AF, I could cure a member of the group and spam some sort of hate grabbing technique, but with all of the lag and other variables, I guess I fear if my actions aren't accompanied by perfect timing, the smn's might end up dead, with wasted 2 hours.

I'd appreciate if anyone could follow up on some specifics to help me better understand how the AF/pet aggro system works and what as a puller I need to do in order to keep the SMN pt healthy.

Thanks for any input! =]

[drwaffles]

Enmity generated by the avatar on the hate-less mobs due to them being hit with its AoE BP does not put the SMN on their hate list. The reason you CFH and build CE on the target mob is that the action of targeting a BP at said mob does generate enmity.

[Zacas1]

Well... I've only done this a few times, but the biggest rule to follow is that the SMNs need to be sure they ONLY target the CFH mob with their AF. The whole point of Astral Burn PTs came from SE saying something along the lines of "AF is a no-enmity AoE" (outside of the actual target) when people were complaining of how "useless" SMN 2hr was. So then people started using SE's words against them and started this.
As long as people don't 'accidentally' target a non-CFH mob, they shouldn't pull hate to themselves. The only times as RDM or as SMN I've ever been in that have ended up wiping was because someone targeted a non-CFH mob, usually because the original CFH mob was killed, and the RDM(s) couldn't CFH fast enough on another mob due to the lag.

[Renzy]

Ok here's what we do:

We have everyone in the group on a pulling job to make gathering mobs as fast as possible, the puller then drops their buffs and takes enough damage for the holder to be able to give them a good cure 4 and then the holder rests until all mobs apart from the original mob the puller used to link everything are attacking the holder, and the puller then kills the original mob they used. The holder also makes sure they need to claim the Jelly which spawns in the camp room.

After the pull is done and people have changed to SMN, we sync the party and have them summon next to the stack of mobs and see if they kill themselves, thus reseting any hate they have on the things they pulled.

When I am the holder I don't spam any spells on myself, I just make sure to keep buffs up. There is no need to CFH anything and nothing SHOULD attack the SMN party, however there can be occasions were a SMN dies for no apparent reason

[Amok]

Enmity generated by the avatar on the hate-less mobs due to them being hit with its AoE BP does not put the SMN on their hate list. The reason you CFH and build CE on the target mob is that the action of targeting a BP at said mob does generate enmity.

This.

If a SMN targets any mob other than the one the holder has built hate on, that SMN will be targeted after his avatar dies.

If the holder rests to get all mobs off puller, then using barspells on himself should build hate on all mobs and would prevent any SMN being on top of the list. I say should because even though I believe I understand the mechanics I've never done this myself. It's easy enough to test/verify though.

*EDIT: only point in doing this is to avoid having all SMN's targeting the right mob and making it more dummy-proof.

[Stellar]

Okay cool. I think I understand. I guess I can run over to Kanican's journal, but just in case my searching capabilities fail again, does anyone know the CE number that the low level SMN will acquire by Astral Flowing that CFH'd mob, then releasing and resting? (I assume it doesn't matter, but would it be considered safer to rest over 26'?)

And appreciate the info regarding changing jobs. I don't really want to have to put the party through too much work since my character actually is the leech. I'd like to have them benefit as quickly as possible and gtfo

Thanks a lot!

[rog]

Doesn't matter which mob you target, i've always just had smns target a random mob, and always worked fine.

Smns can't summon within 25' is the only issue i've seen.

[Thorny]

if you use a CFH mob(gigas work excellent as they're higher level and judgment bolt is thunder based, so does half damage on them), 15 dispels will keep it on you throughout AF and all thundersparks without any enmity gear, smns can rest in range, summon in range, w.e, avoid BPing stray mobs though and stick to the CFH one

if you rest for hate then allow them to BP whatever they want, you're pretty much going to need to spam barspells the entirety of the time they're AFing and thundersparking as any action effects a maximum of 50 mobs, including for enmity generated and you need to outhate them on all mobs just in case

regardless, you need to rest for hate or hate will go from
linked on you -> actual enmity on smn pet -> pet dies -> idle&depop
(on a semi-related note, a neat alternative to carby pull for linking mobs is to have a normal puller and then thunderspark the mob they pulled and hit the link as an additional target.. link goes idle and depops when ramuh is released)
i recommend 5-6 clicks to make sure you hit all mobs with it, because of the aforementioned 50 mob maximum per action
accurate info from someone who understands hate^

[Wrish]

The way this works is the mobs detect you sitting, by sound, but you have no hate on them, except for the CFH mob. So don't position the CFH mob between you and the summoners; if the remaining mobs stray too far from you, they won't hear you and will depop.

In addition, if you use some of the party members as pullers, remember that zoning does not reset hate unless the mob is currently targeting you. I prefer each puller to zone their hate-list mobs with them targeted, thereby erasing their hate completely.

[Thorny]

The way this works is the mobs detect you sitting, by sound, but you have no hate on them, except for the CFH mob. So don't position the CFH mob between you and the summoners; if the remaining mobs stray too far from you, they won't hear you and will depop.

You are retarded.

In addition, if you use some of the party members as pullers, remember that zoning does not reset hate unless the mob is currently targeting you. I prefer each puller to zone their hate-list mobs with them targeted, thereby erasing their hate completely.

Don't use job changes, you can't reliably do it.

[Necronus]

Doesn't matter which mob you target, i've always just had smns target a random mob, and always worked fine.

Smns can't summon within 25' is the only issue i've seen.

^Truth. Summoning nearby or using assault is a good way to end up dead though.

You are retarded.


Don't use job changes, you can't reliably do it.

^Untruth. When I've done it, our pullers are the ones who go back and change to SMNs/leeches/syncs and return.

[Thorny]

^Truth. Summoning nearby or using assault is a good way to end up dead though.

totally a better idea than spending 45 seconds getting a cfh mob

^Untruth. When I've done it, our pullers are the ones who go back and change to SMNs/leeches/syncs and return.

This only works if the pullers zoning aren't rest aggroing things, else when the guy holding mobs rests to get on their mobs' hate list, they'll change targets enough you can't reliably keep hate on the person zoning to true reset. On top of that, you're adding like 40% time per pull..

[Kaeko]

There are 2 ways for your SMNs doing the astral burn to be put on a mob's "hate list" and subsequently possibly aggro them (bad).
(1) Act of using a BP on a target (waffles mentioned)
(2) Act of resting within 10' of a mob

In addition, there are a couple of ways to increase your CE/VE once you are on something's hate list that you will commonly see in burns.
(1) Act of summoning itself (90CE/300VE)
(2) Corsair rolls on someone on anything's hate list (~300VE)
(3) Using various items (~600VE)

If using a CFH'd mob, as long as you build up decent CE on the gigas you're fine. Waffles is correct in the act of targeting a BP will give you CE/VE (exact values I have not been able to test); so if you do not build CE on your holder/puller, they will take hate upon activating the BP. By only targeting your BPs at the CFH'd mob, you will not be placed on any other mobs' hate lists unless you rest too close to them.

If not using a CFH'd mob (random targeting), this still works, but the holder of all mobs needs to be currently /healing to make this most smooth. The act of BP targeting itself grants CE/VE; however, this value is less than the amount of VE constantly generated by being in the /heal position. So having the holder be in the /heal position protects you from the first BP target.

HOWEVER

This is the part that gets a lot of groups. The act of summoning itself grants fairly significant CE/VE (90/300). If you summon within 25' of that mob you targeted (assuming it didn't die), the value will be added and that can overwhelm the constant VE generated via the holder /healing. Item usage, etc. can as well. The key here is to make your SMNs retreat far back beyond 25' before doing any actions like resting, items, or summoning. I usually instruct people new to burns to stand ~35' since sometimes you cannot see all the mobs and there may be some closer to you than you can see.

******************

If you are new to astral burns or want to be crazy safe, this is the procedure I would use:

Puller (assuming we're using a RDM here):
(1) CFH non-ranger Gigas and Dispel 10x on it
(2) Kill jelly prior to starting burn
(3) Once starting, phalanx and /heal during the actual burn

SMNs:
(1) Instruct them never to use the assault command
(2) Simply run into the pile and lead the avatar to the middle
(3) Only BP the CFH gigas
(4) Never use release command - let it die
(5) Always retreat beyond ~30-35' before resting/items/summons

All of these procedures are not necessary and experienced groups can and usually do take shortcuts, but this gives you maximum security in case someone screws up (for instance if using CFH, the holder /healing is unnecessary, but it protects any SMN that accidently BPs something else).

[rog]

totally a better idea than spending 45 seconds getting a cfh mob

45 seconds to pull a mob that will give no exp, or just run back 25' after every af, instead of just standing still doing nothing. I'll keep my method that doesn't waste time for no benefit, kthx.

This only works if the pullers zoning aren't rest aggroing things, else when the guy holding mobs rests to get on their mobs' hate list, they'll change targets enough you can't reliably keep hate on the person zoning to true reset. On top of that, you're adding like 40% time per pull..

Uh, wrong. Being on the hate list isn't really a big deal when you have 0 ve/ce.

[Kaeko]

This only works if the pullers zoning aren't rest aggroing things, else when the guy holding mobs rests to get on their mobs' hate list, they'll change targets enough you can't reliably keep hate on the person zoning to true reset. On top of that, you're adding like 40% time per pull..

If you choose to do this, the puller that intends to leech will always have mobs on his hate list (like you said from resting). However, you can still leech so long as you are not one of the SMNs. You can still be a leecher, just stand really really far back.

[rog]

If not using a CFH'd mob (random targeting), this still works, but the holder of all mobs needs to be currently /healing to make this most smooth. The act of BP targeting itself grants CE/VE; however, this value is less than the amount of VE constantly generated by being in the /heal position. So having the holder be in the /heal position protects you from the first BP target.

I never rest with holder, and never have any issues with hate.

Also, having smns pull hasn't caused any problems either.

[Kaeko]

I never rest with holder, and never have any issues with hate.

Also, having smns pull hasn't caused any problems either.

Dunno what to say then. The /heal and /sit actions are very hard to pin down on what actually happens CE/VE/hate list wise. If it works for you, then definitely continue.

[Thorny]

If you really -never- rest with holder, after AF your mobs will kill the avatar and then depop as nobody has any hate on them

If you choose to do this, the puller that intends to leech will always have mobs on his hate list (like you said from resting). However, you can still leech so long as you are not one of the SMNs. You can still be a leecher, just stand really really far back.

You can't stand too far back or no exp, hate will still change if mobs hit for above 0 so you need person holding log to be careful to keep ss up. I'm sure you already knew that though, just a bunch of extra effort.

45 seconds to pull a mob that will give no exp, or just run back 25' after every af, instead of just standing still doing nothing. I'll keep my method that doesn't waste time for no benefit, kthx.

you can grab the gigas while pulling and build hate as AFs start(just begin with a VE spell then spam dispel) and lose 0 time

it's not no benefit, it's situational benefit.. you say your puller isn't resting, which means you're getting hate some other way.. say they slack off a bit and your smn dies, you just lost a big chunk of time or exp.. on top of that, puller getting hate on a gigas takes less time from both a ingame time perspective and person's keypresses perspective than having people run 25' away

[Wrish]

I sense some confusion. Blame my sloppy writing.

If you only rest agro mobs, then you have no enmity on any mobs and don't need to worry about zoning technique.

But if you're performing actions on bats, since those bats you're acting on won't give XP but can only endanger you when you level sync, it makes more sense to keep them on you as you zone/depop them. Should they not depop because the crowd-gatherer cured you instead of just sitting, you'll still be a lot safer completely off the hate list than hoping the crowd-gatherer's CE before sit-down exceeds all your astral flows and miscellaneous actions in range. The crowd-gatherer will have to sit, as you noted, to keep the interest of all those mobs with empty (or "zeroed out") hate lists.

[Massimo]

45 seconds to pull a mob that will give no exp, or just run back 25' after every af, instead of just standing still doing nothing. I'll keep my method that doesn't waste time for no benefit, kthx.

wat. You should be resting, not running around like an idiot. We usually just had the puller spam bar spells, but I can see how a CFH mob makes things easier.

Also, don't say Hi-Ethers.