Linkshell Etiquette/Civility

[KaizenTaru]

Just out of curiousity, I was wondering what it was like on other servers - the matter of LS etiquette and civility to one another.
It seems to be a recurring theme that people on FF and other MMOs don't see other players as, well, human beings. x.x
The mentality is that if you're not in my LS or in my PT doing something that may contribute directly to me, you're treated as an NPC or worse. And I don't mean to say most of the players are like this, but the hardcore/endgame niche seems to be afflicted heavily by this.

My question is what are conditions like on other servers?
Bahamut had been renowned for friendly, cooperative play compared to other servers. A handful of servers /random for HNM claims, most consider it bad form to do MPK, etc.
Do LS's communicate? I know there were some efforts to post planned Dynamis reservations, but from my knowledge most people never bother with that.
In the same line, today there's a LS in Sky that's popping 6 Kirins in a row, refusing to let any other LS pop. That's going to lock out the rest of the server from popping for 5 hours. They refuse to /random or take turns - which seems kind of inconsiderate to me.

Being an online game, there's little social pressure or economic ramifications for being unfriendly (unless, of course, you screw over your friends - but even then, you can just server transfer and lol @ em :/ IRL people do background checks and you get fubared).
I want to keep RL out of this post though and try to gain some insight as to what social conditions are like on other servers.

(As for the Kirin situation, the only option we really have is to ninja pop when the ??? repops, but should situations really boil down to that? I mean this is Kirin... @_@ Oh, and we have one pop, which would probably be killed in about the same it takes them to kill one of theirs.)

[terranova]

It's endgame overall that has that effect on people. For some reason it makes people throw their humanity out of the window. I've seen people die and a person who can raise will keep right on running. People shouting for help and getting ridiculous responses back. A player is nothing and nobody to no one. What LS a person is in doesn't matter. Linkshells however can have cliques. If you're not in this "inner circle" within the Linkshell - you're just a player with the pearl and nothing else.

[KaizenTaru]

People get pretty worked up over a game, but I can understand the psychological aspects of how deeply MMOs can affect people because it's their primary social structure/outlet.

I wonder if we are moving in a direction (as a segment of society) in which digital interaction and social status are just as important - or more so - than "real world" conditions.
Someone could be grocery cashier #327B at Wal-Mart but log on and be Bob the Galka with an Aegis... not hard to see which "world" that guy would rather spend most of his time in.

But regardless, I don't think we should toss what we've learned about "playing nice with others" out the window.
It's a cutthroat world, endgame is - one that too closely resembles RL corporate business for my liking.

As for your examples, it's just sad when people act like that.
A Raise takes like 10 secs to do and can really save someone a lot of time. All you lose is MP.
If someone asks a question, it's just pure idiocy to answer back with someone ridiculous.
Imagine walking on the sidewalk with a friend and asking him "Where's the nearest Dairy Queen?" and some random dude shouts back "lolyourmom."
Not quite the same, but the sentiment is similar.

And with LS cliques to further segment players, that's true and I see it/hear about it in most LS's.
It's like high school all over again, with Dragon's Aery replacing the Homecoming Dance. x.x

[shukuffxi]

Kaizen hit on some good points. There is also definetly social and peer pressure in game, to act/behave a certain way within your group, and toss in "John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory"

http://sc.tri-bit.com/images/7/7e/gr...kwadtheory.jpg

and you get where we are today.

[evilpaul]

It depends on the person I think more than the LS. Some people like to do nonsensical trash-talking and bitch incessantly when things don't go their way. Others have a little bit of a filter like reasonably well-adjusted people do in real life.

[shukuffxi]

People get pretty worked up over a game, but I can understand the psychological aspects of how deeply MMOs can affect people because it's their primary social structure/outlet.

In the case of people like that (i'd say I belong to that group), it really does tend to replace your IRL social life. It's what you do, it becomes much more important to you if you come home from work @5PM, and then log off at midnight, 5-7 days a week, and you have a harder time connecting with those who play to a lesser extent.

I wonder if we are moving in a direction (as a segment of society) in which digital interaction and social status are just as important - or more so - than "real world" conditions.
Someone could be grocery cashier #327B at Wal-Mart but log on and be Bob the Galka with an Aegis... not hard to see which "world" that guy would rather spend most of his time in.

I don't think this is a new thing, it's just much less socially acceptable. Some groups have been more outcast than others, because what they do is not really respected by society at large.

For example, my older brother has been a DJ for over 10 years, and supplements his incoming by playing poker. He makes a fairly good deal of money, more than some people I know with proper University degrees, yet most of my family regards him as some kind of oddity/outcast.

Another example would be "extreme" sports fans, who go out and drink and watch a game at a bar nightly, or get season tickets, wake up and read the sports, think about it at work, and so on, though this seems more socially acceptable.

MMO's have become a very social thing to do, despite not being "real", and it will be a long time until it ever achieves any real "acceptance", unless a major huge MMO comes that dwarfs WoW and tons of "every day people" can get into it.

But regardless, I don't think we should toss what we've learned about "playing nice with others" out the window.
It's a cutthroat world, endgame is - one that too closely resembles RL corporate business for my liking.

Playing nice with others is almost always a good idea. But, when we're talking about endgame, you are often absolutely right, it does resemble cut-throat corporate business. I've seen people slave away, put in 40 hour weeks in game, just to get bypassed by an inane LS rules, or favoritism or other things, as i'm sure many of you have witnessed or experienced. Each person has to take their own stance on this.

I know one person who simply does not care, he's treated fairly poorly by his LS, and just assumes "everywhere is equally crappy, might as well stay here." And I know people who've played it more cut throat, got items and moved on when they were displeased with some situation.

An LS is a bit like BF/GF relationshiop in that often it's good for a bit, then it becomes strained, and eventually you want to leave, but fear to for a number of reasons, be it items you've received, or a soon to obtain, or how people will think of you. This is when the game becomes truly un-fun, and a job. In about 4 1/2 years of FFXI now, i've been in 4 "real LS" (not counting like my first small social or a public dynamis LS), and I only feel like I ever really felt in one of those four.

I can honestly only think of a singular really great incident where a really nice fellow had his toon ran to Nidhogg to lot an M.Body, since he was the longest in line/most deserving of it, and I thought that was a pretty great thing to do, even if it's an M.Body

And with LS cliques to further segment players, that's true and I see it/hear about it in most LS's. It's like high school all over again, with Dragon's Aery replacing the Homecoming Dance. x.x

Very true. I love examining the interactions of groups (i'm probably going to end up majoring in sociology >_>). It is like High School, just hopefully a bit more mature when you're dealing with a group of somewhat older players.

[LD]

Eh....First, lets pin down what we're talking about here.
In terms of rude people in FFXI (at least), it comes down to legitimate douchebags and people who have been playing since the dark ages and have appropriately shaded personalities.

The former is the ubiquitous internet troll, a person whose filter and consideration (if any) stops at the hard glass of his computer screen. To him this is a game, and while games are for social interaction, they are rarely for social communication, since the most communication most people do during a game is shit-talking.

The latter, on the other hand, is simply someone who's dealt with the former so long that they have stopped attempting to treat anyone they don't know with respect, and will instead assume everyone is a moron unless proven otherwise. Some people will clam up, some will be openly hostile, some will avoid them altogether. Basically, these are the Elitists.

There are other potential reasons why each is the way they are, but that's the general outline.


The tone of this conversation reminds me of the 'good exp vs. fun' argument. I rarely enjoy exping. There are times when it can be fun for me, but for the most part I just want to level up to 75 and play the game at that level, since that's where all the interesting shit is. The few times I feel kind enough to tell the people around me how to better themselves and am then met with hostility and/or the 'this is for fun' line, the same thought always runs through my head (and usually through my lips): "EXPing in itself is not fun for me, doing well is fun for me. The most fun part of anything is putting in all your effort and getting a reward of equal or greater value. Not trying your best is nothing less than gross, purposeful underachievement. If I'm alienating myself by voicing my opinion, fine. Why would I want a bunch of lazy friends who don't try their best in everything they enjoy."
Any situation where the word 'elitist' comes to mind, the person is probably thinking 'Why should I bother speaking to you like an adult if you wont act like one?'

As far as HNM goes, well unless you have a very well-oiled machine (socially speaking), it's open warfare. We can't attack each other directly (technically), but like a real war, anyone and everyone will exploit any weakness they can find. I was once in command of a SKY LS, long ago. We had just been beaten to Zipacna and though the rival group eventually beat it, a few of them died. We were going to make our way to Faust when one of our (very few) WHMs decided to raise one of their people despite the fact that they had healers. I immediately and harshly commanded the pleb to go with the rest of the group. My memory is hazey, not sure if he obeyed or not, but in any case low & behold, the dead guy's group nearly took Faust from us (another ungodly fuck-up ensued, but that's another story).


Both of those stories are about selfishness. Someone who wants to be as shitty as he wants isn't thinking about the rest of the group and someone who tries too hard to help everyone isn't thinking of his group. They're also about how selfishness can be the best option. Sometimes you can get the best results by imposing your will on others a little bit for the greater good. Why should it be any less fun to do better? By being a bit of an asshole, everyone can get more out of an experience. Even if the dead person wasn't going to race us to an NM, there was a good chance someone else would. He wasn't our responsibility and it was a waste of our time and manpower to deal with him. The point of being selfless is probably not considering or accepting a reward, but it isn't sacrificing the resources of others just so you can do whatever you want. That's selfishness, even when you’re helping someone. It may be a little calculating to think in terms of loss and gain, but the people who you're with, the ones who you fought with yesterday and today, and will probably fight with tomorrow, they're the ones who matter most. It’s more than a little stupid to think about others when the entire point of you being there is for you or your group to get something and that's on the line.

[SephYuyX]

Probably in '03~04 this was made, then updated in 05~06, and probably needs to be updated again. Everyone agreeded with it with no problems. Usually the only people who cause problems are new LSs who still think they can get away without following the rules.

Every now and then small shit will happen, but it's usually just because one or two people get butthurt.

Overall its worked fairly well.



Ragnarok HNM Guidelines (augmented to sound less emo) version 2
Not directly involved this time, but seeing as there are a lot of new faces on the field now I suppose it could benefit the community a bit by bringing it back up.

Disclaimer: These rules are basically just a compilation of the unwritten rules that have been going on Ragnarok since the beginning of the game. No one person or group is trying to take over the server with these. They are they way they are because they work, most of the time. No, there is no one who is going to force you to be good civilized people; it's a mutual agreement honor system that leaves everyone with the highest payoffs in the long run. Take a course on Game Theory if you don't understand what that means.

Respectable Hunting 101:

Pull-rules:
- All pulls are considered legit. Unfortunately, even though we all know now how much botting is going on, there is never any solid proof. "We strongly believe ____ hacks" is not proof, and is not an excuse for any underhanded actions. If you managed to get something as valid as a video of someone teleporting or something else of the like, it may be discussed later, but at the moment just let it go to avoid chaos on the floor.
- "GTFO rule": Upon a pull, please clear out of the battle area. In terms of King Behemoth, a good place to go is the tunnels. For Adamantoise/Aspidochelone, the most laggy corner of Ragnarok will do. For Dragonaery, please either escape or sneak out into Zi'Tah as soon as possible. This is a courtesy thing, I scratch your back you scratch mine. It's also a problem if the pulling party wipes instantly and the HNM starts aggroing people. For all these purposes, please GTFO if you lose.
Why GTFO? Various reasons. For one, lag kills. You may want them to die from lag, but causing it is it a very low thing to do. Another is that for things that need to be kited, you're in the kiting path. I know it may "sound like bullshit," but running into someone while trying to get away from meteo can mean the difference between out-ranging it and eating it. I can understand how some people want to watch, but it's like that time someone from the audience yoinked a baseball and caused a home run that could have been saved by the outfielder.

Randoming Rules:
- A wise man once said, if you lost the pull then you should go with the mentality that you lost the HNM. Winning the random and having things go smoothly is, while extremely nice, not something that should be expected. It can cause a lot of pain and emo if you get your hopes up too high. That being said...
- In the event that a LS appears to wipe, propose a random in /shout. For Dragonaery, propose it in shout and quickly escape out as a courtesy to the current LS and handle the dealings in Zitah by Boyahda main Entrance.
- Aside from Fafnir, each LS that wishes to participate will have one representative say so in /shout. /tells are too obscure, do it in /shout where everyone can see. In Zi'tah since everyone should be at the escape spot, /say should suffice. If an LS is unable to have even one single representative escape from DragonAery within a reasonable amount of time, then they either have no elemental seal, are afk, or are being discourteous to the currently engaged LS by crowding them. In any event, it's enough to merit disqualification.
- Please refrain from throwing out /random's out of the blue at the time of the dealings. This only causes confusion and can be used against you.
- It hardly needs to be said, but highest random wins. Second highest is second, etc.
- If the winners of the random decide at any point to leave, they lose priority. In other words, if you think they current group is going to pull through and D2 out, then they wipe 30 minutes later, you have no priority even if you return.
- Winners of the random should engage as soon as the original LS "wipes" (more details below) and the HP regens to 100%, and begin to kill it immediately. No holding for members, no holding time. If you have enough to hold but not enough to kill at the time of the pop, you should not be eligible to random. Please respect this honesty system and not try to random with 2 people and then go /l HURRY UP GET PEOPLE HERE NOW
- Proclaim the outcome of the /random in shout or say, so that everyone can see it. Anyone with a dispute speak now or forever hold your peace.

Wipe-out:
- For a LS to be considered wiped, all members have to be dead and the monster back to it's calm non-aggroed mode. It will stop chasing people, start moving slowly and remain stationary of periods of time. Likewise, if you are part of the wiping LS and have raised, if you do not have hate on the NM then you are not considered to be "alive."
- If it "aggros you," it means you didn't follow the GTFO rule. Zone or die and wait for the NM to stop moving.
- Let it be known now. If the mob is taken before the above circumstances are met, it is considered a stolen mob and an MPK attempt. I don't care if they have only one person alive. If you are that sure they are going to wipe, then sit there and let them wipe. Likewise, if you have a legit right to it from the random rules, no one will try to steal it from you. The victimized LS (from now on, regardless of who) should be permitted time for a full recovery and have the NM returned to them. Don't say this rule is bullshit, it's not hard to wait for them to die off completely. If you can't wait a whole 20 seconds for the last tank or mage to die then you've ruined your shot, it's that simple.

In the event that any of the above rules are not followed:
- Please let the leaders handle it. If LS leaders are not available then have whoever is in charge talk it out. The result may all be from misunderstandings that can be cleared. If one party is simply being unreasonable, be the better man and let them have it. Even the rarest of mobs will pop in another 5 to 7 days, you will have another opportunity then. Be aware, however, that repeat offenses are noticed by everyone, and even though people try to follow rules it's wise not to make enemies in the playing field.
- Under no circumstances will stealing and calling for help and/or direct MPKing be tolerated. Likewise, LSs will be judged if they can not deal with lowlife members who perform such acts regularily.
- Please keep in mind that an eye for an eye does not solve anything. Your actions can and will reflect your LS, and it may bring a lot of trouble for people who should not have to be involved.

Unresolved issues:
- There are no SSJ rules as far as I'm concerned, but keep in mind that how honorable your actions are determine the reputation of your LS. Like I said before, despite all of these "rules" it's still much nicer to have more friends than enemies on the field.
- Botting: No way to prove/disprove? IMO as long as no single person from a single LS is winning every single pull then it's not worth screaming about.
- What happens when a solo fag pulls it and dies instantly before people can GTFO? Usually some chaos.

[Noob]

The latter, on the other hand, is simply someone who's dealt with the former so long that they have stopped attempting to treat anyone they don't know with respect, and will instead assume everyone is a moron unless proven otherwise. Some people will clam up, some will be openly hostile, some will avoid them altogether. Basically, these are the Elitists.

Me summed up into one paragraph. Good job.

[Noob]

Every word in LD's post is made of pure win and sums up the endgame attitude as well as every form of stigma surrounding it.

Kudos to you for that post. It deserves an award.

[Parzival]

People get pretty worked up over a game, but I can understand the psychological aspects of how deeply MMOs can affect people because it's their primary social structure/outlet.

I wonder if we are moving in a direction (as a segment of society) in which digital interaction and social status are just as important - or more so - than "real world" conditions.
Someone could be grocery cashier #327B at Wal-Mart but log on and be Bob the Galka with an Aegis... not hard to see which "world" that guy would rather spend most of his time in.

But regardless, I don't think we should toss what we've learned about "playing nice with others" out the window.
It's a cutthroat world, endgame is - one that too closely resembles RL corporate business for my liking.

As for your examples, it's just sad when people act like that.
A Raise takes like 10 secs to do and can really save someone a lot of time. All you lose is MP.
If someone asks a question, it's just pure idiocy to answer back with someone ridiculous.
Imagine walking on the sidewalk with a friend and asking him "Where's the nearest Dairy Queen?" and some random dude shouts back "lolyourmom."
Not quite the same, but the sentiment is similar.

And with LS cliques to further segment players, that's true and I see it/hear about it in most LS's.
It's like high school all over again, with Dragon's Aery replacing the Homecoming Dance. x.x

Awesome.

Another example would be "extreme" sports fans, who go out and drink and watch a game at a bar nightly, or get season tickets, wake up and read the sports, think about it at work, and so on, though this seems more socially acceptable.

That's not really "extreme", there, that's most 18-35 year old males (younger and older I guess, too).

[KaizenTaru]

@shukuffxi
Haha, that UT2k4 pic is pretty funny - sad, but funny.
And indeed, a lot of people are into FFXI heavily. WoW, even moreso.
It's not socially acceptable yet, but it is prevalent - I know of people from high-powered lawyers to university presidents to Division I college football players that play MMOs heavily.
But it's still their "dirty secret" to their RL social circle, I suppose - and skipping out on bar hopping with RL mates to do something more productive in-game would be met with cries of "you have no life!"
The success of WoW is in that "everyday people" do play it, people who have never ventured into MMOs before. And increasingly, using the internet to IM and social network (hello, MySpace) have reached penetration through the entire global community. So how long will it be before the children of the digital era (the ones who are in middle school with their cell phones texting and Twittering) decide that their "Second Life" is more intrinsically rewarding than (and should be as socially acceptable as) their "real life."

@LD
The legitimate douchebags you mention, are they generally wholesome people IRL or are they the same folks who give kids swirlies in high school?
As for the people who turn elitist due to the social machinations of the douchebags mentioned above, it's sad to see people become so jaded in-game or IRL. If it's the douchebags who are forcing the environment to gravitate towards a situation where normally friendly people would have to clam up and clamp down, then that reminds me of a situation like in Lord of the Flies... or Battle Royale... >.>
As for your comment on open warfare in the HNM scene, imagine if SE changed the mechanics so that Dragon's Aery were an open PvP zone - if you're in, you're fair game.
Haha, that would be a lot of fun; albeit crazy. (Betcha Fafnir would survive a lot longer as LS's would beat the snot out of other LS's that claim, all the while Faf is laying the smackdown.)
Sorry to digress. I've seen where you're coming from with the Zip/Faust example.
My LS has the policy of no interfering with another LS while they fight, but we aren't going to help them unless it's a LS that's friendly to us.
Yar, we've lost or nearly most NMs to people we've helped before as well, hence I tell my LS members to avoid helping or hindering LS's in doing their fight.
I agree that you have to consider the greater good of your LS before placing the benefit of other random LS's ahead of your own. It's cold and pragmatic, but that's the state of Vana'diel (and I'm sure there's plenty of examples IRL).
The basis of economics is that humans are in rational self-interest: getting Faust enables us to fight Suzy, to possible get drops that enhance our LS's fighting capabilities. Helping the other LS gets us a pat on the back (maybe) and a short-term feel-good intrinsic buzz.
(You don't see Google helping Microsoft by sharing their search engine source code to help them optimize it, eh? But similarly, should we have to be in a position where we have to treat our dealings in-game like we would address them in the "real world" ?)

@SephirothYuyX
I'm glad to see that there are instances where the community can implement unofficial rules into play to benefit everyone.
Those newer LS's that just ignore the rules probably don't understand the benefit of it - haha, game theory isn't something that Joe Layman would comprehend without it being distilled for them.
"Durrr, my maximum gain = outclaiming all you n00bs cuz u have no skillz."
If that rule set had gained the support of enough of the HNM community to estabilish legitimacy, then I applaud you guys. On our server, I'm not sure if any rules have every been proposed (then again, I avoid camping Kings like the plague).
Out of curiosity, how did you guys engage the JP community in that process?
For example, our LS generally tries to give another LS the benefit of a full wipe before claiming. A LS popped Despot with like 4 people (NIN, DRK/whm, THF, RDM) and had serious problems, we were there along with another JP LS. The other LS had their PLD shadowing the NIN or whoever had hate (the LS with claim were dying left and right), so we assumed they were probably going to claim the moment Despot when yellow, regardless of whether their THF or RDM or anything were up or not.
I don't speak Japanese, so it would have been difficult to propose to the other LS to either /random for claim or to communicate that we would let the LS with claim to fully wipe before taking it.

On another topic, how do you guys approach BSTs soloing and pet swap?
Apparently, there's a camp that believes yellow = fair game, which would be the letter of the law according to game mechanics and the ToS.
But it seems like of... sneaky/low to Voke and mob that goes yellow when the BST is perfectly fine, just changing to a new pet? Or am I just being too soft for my own good? :3

More to post later, there's a lot of good conversation going on.
Thanks for the comments and replies so far, it's nice to get a fresh perspective from other servers.

[LD]

@LD
If it's the douchebags who are forcing the environment to gravitate towards a situation where normally friendly people would have to clam up and clamp down, then that reminds me of a situation like in Lord of the Flies... or Battle Royale... >.>

That's actually exactly how I see the internet, a closed system with no mediators. The modernization of human society only barely keeps us from regressing into tribalism, and as you can see in areas where authority figures have either lost power or interest, the common man can be forced to become an animal: aggressive and territorial. Being good or bad no longer enters into it, it's about ruthlessness; keeping what’s yours and getting what you want by any means necessary. Personally, I chalk it up to human adaptivity. When an emotion is no longer necessarily, much like our tails, it gets discarded.

The two archetypes were just outlines in terms of how one would see them. The origins aren't set in stone, they're simply something to base the idea on. An 'elitist' doesn't necessarily have to be driven to that state by a string of assholes just as the 'douchebag' isn't always the chaotic-neutral I presented them as. Sometimes it is our own fault for not trying to be considerate of other's feelings and needs and sometimes the actual effect they have on people isn't so dramatic. It takes the ability to put things in perspective.

Also, after saying all that shit, I have the horrible feeling this conversation just stepped into the realm of utterly ridiculous labeling, despite my attempts to blur the lines.


Personally, I hold to the philosophy that if someone needs something more than me, they should get it and if someone needs someone as much as me, I should get it (and of course, if I need it the most...) Selfishness is not a four-letter word (it really isn't %D) and neither is egotism as long as it isn't for the purpose of hurting others. Hurting others with truth is never your fault, since the only way they could be hurt is if they resist it, but openly degrading others with no purpose other than holding them lower or yourself higher makes you no better than the willfully ignorant prats you see them as. For me, morality is defined by what is in your way, on your path, and your path is defined by what you're doing at the time. If you help someone on your path, you're just a normal, decent human being. If you hurt someone on your path, its not your fault they were in your way. If you help someone out of your way, you're one of those bleeding hearts who has love and a smile for all the creatures of the blah bleh bleh blah bleck. If you hurt someone out of your way, you are a cocksmoker, and you suck deeply indeed.

Lets throw out some examples and prove our work.
I'm walking along to Jeuno (from taru warp or a maw, w/e), I'm not in a hurry. I see a dead body on my way. I am very obviously a mage who can Raise. I Raise him, he's thankful, and it only took ~30 more seconds for me to get to where I was going. I didn't have to walk over the entire area to find him, it's like tripping over a rock and moving it out of the way, you do it for others, but it's also so you don't trip over it again. Yes I didn't HAVE to, but I was going that way anyway and I'd be pissed if someone who I knew could raise me looked right at me and kept walking.

I'm walking to a Campaign battle and see, as I'm sure we all have, an ungodly number of dead bodies. I raise them as fast as I'm able. They're thankful, but I don't see why, as I didn't do it for them. Campaign is what is known as a Group Effort, meaning helping others gets you what you want: exp/AN and national prosperity. I wanted Bastok to not lose North Gusta so easily (bit futile, but anyway ¬¬), so I raised people to get what I wanted. This is an example of a kind act with (at least partially) selfish intentions. In this case the path is Bastok's success and these people aren't rocks, but the road itself which needs to be maintained.

I don't consider myself good, but I do consider myself honorable and fair. I'm also objective, but only insofar as I'm able to recognize that I'm being selfish, but usually wont act to rectify that. Meaning I don't delude myself into thinking I'm always doing the right thing.

[Khrno]

Ragnarok HNM Guidelines (augmented to sound less emo) version 2
Not directly involved this time, but seeing as there are a lot of new faces on the field now I suppose it could benefit the community a bit by bringing it back up.

Wow, Raganarok is some weird place, I've never seen something of the likes, servers can be so different ;\

[Taisaijin]

sad thing is no one follows an etiquette lol

and if we all followed it, vana'diel would smile again and the world
would be a better place with less anger and hatred, as well as corruption and scamming, and don't forget blackmailing

[Parzival]

@shukuffxi
Haha, that UT2k4 pic is pretty funny - sad, but funny.
And indeed, a lot of people are into FFXI heavily. WoW, even moreso.
It's not socially acceptable yet, but it is prevalent - I know of people from high-powered lawyers to university presidents to Division I college football players that play MMOs heavily.
But it's still their "dirty secret" to their RL social circle, I suppose - and skipping out on bar hopping with RL mates to do something more productive in-game would be met with cries of "you have no life!"
The success of WoW is in that "everyday people" do play it, people who have never ventured into MMOs before. And increasingly, using the internet to IM and social network (hello, MySpace) have reached penetration through the entire global community. So how long will it be before the children of the digital era (the ones who are in middle school with their cell phones texting and Twittering) decide that their "Second Life" is more intrinsically rewarding than (and should be as socially acceptable as) their "real life."

The issue would be that people that decide their virtual life is more rewarding than their real lives obviously have to have some level of sucking at the game of real life. I don't know how skipping out on going to the bar could be countered with something 'more productive' in a video game. That's not being productive, that's just entertaining yourself in another way. A way which doesn't involve human contact. How can you be defensive about someone looking down on your social skills if you purposely choose to shun human contact and gaining 'experience points' in 'real life' (with a character you can never change, in a game you have to play) to instead gain something in a video game?

I don't play too much, I'm approaching my third 75 and I've had an account since the summer of 04. I played alot specifically for two years when I was stationed in Korea, the horrible nation that it is. I play a couple times a week now but would I ever play instead of going out with friends or the girlfriend? Of course not, and I don't think people that would rather sit in front of a computer all day should ever be fully accepted. I'm sure that'll be an unpopular opinion here but be serious- it's socially stunting.

Out of all the people I've personally known- as in know them in real life, not through the game- that play alot of FF or WoW, I would call maybe one or two normal. These weren't the cool kids in class, these aren't people that can work on many social levels. They're just, for the most part, not.

[siknoz]

sad thing is no one follows an etiquette lol

and if we all followed it, vana'diel would smile again and the world
would be a better place with less anger and hatred, as well as corruption and scamming, and don't forget blackmailing

Even if you have rules of etiquette, everyone else will just poke fun at you for having them.

True story

[Taisaijin]

Even if you have rules of etiquette, everyone else will just poke fun at you for having them.

True story

not necesarilly, i mean it depends
im not saying to be overly polite or with a morale above the sky

just good behavior...so we all can get along...

i mean reading other's drama is great, it's fun reading all that on BG with some popcorn n coke n cocaine but it's not as good when it happens to you or your LS

[siknoz]

For example, we have a very simple rule that we don't talk in /say at camps, because its usually another ls just egging you on to have the "who has the biggest internet penis" argument. So because of that, guess what happens at almost every camp?

[Taisaijin]

lmao...sadly true that point