Accuracy, Evasion, Enmity Soft Cap

[Twilightschaos]

Alright this has been bothering for a long time now. At one point you can not stack anymore +accuracy onto your character. You just can't feel it past a certain number. The same goes with +evasion, +enmity, etc. (I'm not talking about +skill). My question is what is the exact number and have there been any tests conducted to prove this.

[ubermonkey]

Alright this has been bothering for a long time now. At one point you can not stack anymore +accuracy onto your character. You just can't feel it past a certain number. The same goes with +evasion, +enmity, etc. (I'm not talking about +skill). My question is what is the exact number and have there been any tests conducted to prove this.

Accuracy is based on mob evasion. There are a number of topics across this forum discussing various aspects of this.

Emn (iirc) caps at +100, based on testing by ashira and kaeko, again found here, and on kaekos Livejournal.

Evasion is the same as accuracy, varies from mob to mob.

Search is your friend in this case.

[Twilightschaos]

Forgive me but I think you misunderstood the question. My THF has +66 evasion equipment with 286 evasion skill. I no longer feel any effects when I toss more +evasion equipment onto it. I can only feel it when I equip AGI or +evasion skill and its very small. No matter how much +evasion gear I stack it seems I have reached a cap. I'm very aware of the mob levels of their accuracy versus my evasion, but tossing another +15 evasion gear is unnoticable.

To sum it up the game will not let you put, for example, +100 evasion without some sort of cap on your character. You will not receive the PURE effect of 100 evasion, it will stop at a certain number.

[Thorny]

This is the newbie forum, but you should really lose the confidence in saying something like that without proof. You cannot eyeball a difference putting on small amounts of agi or evasion skill or even evasion at any point.. you can run your theories but that's all they are, theories.

[shinoniken]

If you're so confident in this then parse it and prove it. Honestly though, I see no point in wearing that much +evasion gear. Against anything that you would need that much evasion for, you should be going for more evasion skill+. If there was any reason to bother, I'd test this myself, but there isn't, and honestly I think you're ass wrong.

[ubermonkey]

Nvm, not worth the hassle. Needs moar delete option.

[Ruiner]

Forgive me but I think you misunderstood the question. My THF has +66 evasion equipment with 286 evasion skill. I no longer feel any effects when I toss more +evasion equipment onto it. I can only feel it when I equip AGI or +evasion skill and its very small. No matter how much +evasion gear I stack it seems I have reached a cap. I'm very aware of the mob levels of their accuracy versus my evasion, but tossing another +15 evasion gear is unnoticable.

To sum it up the game will not let you put, for example, +100 evasion without some sort of cap on your character. You will not receive the PURE effect of 100 evasion, it will stop at a certain number.

There are soft caps and hard caps for most stats in this game, evasion is no different. However, I seriously doubt that there is one hard cap for Evasion, it's dependent on your target's Accuracy.

Also, pick up a parser. "Feeling" something is not an efficient way to gauge differences. You need numbers to back it up.

[Kirschy]

I don't believe there is a cap for Accuracy/Evasion. I've seen parsed evasion rates of ~70%+ on HNM which requires full evasion gear and double mambos. Depending on the mobs accuracy you can continue adding evasion gear, traits, songs, and rolls until it hits the 70-80% cap. You can't sustain an average higher than this. Adding Evasion/AGI is most likely not linear and there might be decreasing gains as you approach the evasion cap.

As for accuracy, the one thought that comes to my mind is the Mamool Lurker @ North Mamool camp. I have a great set on DRK /w 2H relic, around 70 acc, and I'll still notice a difference in hit rate when using Diabolic Eye and Abs-Acc. Like evasion, I feel you can continue adding accuracy eq/traits/songs/roll until you hit a ~95% rate. Like evasion, I don't believe the growth is linear.

As for Enmity there is quite possibly a cap. If I recall(and someone correct me if I'm wrong) sentinal puts you at +100 Enmity for the duration of the JA. Regardless of using +Enmity gear/food/merits you'll be at +100 Enmity during Sentinal. This would imply that Sentinal sets you at that particular enmity and ignores anything else. Or that +100 is the cap. I don't believe you can reach anything near +100 without the use of one of those silly event items, so it's not a real issue.

I guess to sum this up. The parsed rates have a cap, but how much is required to hit this cap is based on the mob's stats.

[Twilightschaos]

Okay I understand now. Thank you very much Ruiner and Kirschy.

[Apelila]

I'm going to hijack this thread with a related question I have:

What the hell is the difference between evasion skill and evasion? I can easily get +40 evasion on my MNK but it doesn't do a lot VS stuff with already high ACC. Reading lolwiki's take on Evasion VS. Evasion skill, it seems like it might share a relationship like Attack and STR; all the STR in the world doesn't do jack shit if your attack is 250.

Or am I just over thinking it?

[shinoniken]

I'm going to hijack this thread with a related question I have:

What the hell is the difference between evasion skill and evasion? I can easily get +40 evasion on my MNK but it doesn't do a lot VS stuff with already high ACC. Reading lolwiki's take on Evasion VS. Evasion skill, it seems like it might share a relationship like Attack and STR; all the STR in the world doesn't do jack shit if your attack is 250.

Or am I just over thinking it?

I have always felt the evasion skill is far more beneficial than evasion, thought this is solely from "eyeing" it. I think it also helps a lot if your evasion skill matches their level skill cap, i.e. shooting for about 276 evasion skill to solo a 75 mob.

[KSDI]

I too prefer Evasion Skill+ rather than evasion+ but that comes from nothing other than thinking it works like other combat skills where 7 H2H skill on faith torque is better that 10straight acc from pcc. If anyone here has links to conclusive data on one being decidedly better than the other pls share.

[Tordall]

I'm going to hijack this thread with a related question I have:

What the hell is the difference between evasion skill and evasion? I can easily get +40 evasion on my MNK but it doesn't do a lot VS stuff with already high ACC. Reading lolwiki's take on Evasion VS. Evasion skill, it seems like it might share a relationship like Attack and STR; all the STR in the world doesn't do jack shit if your attack is 250.

Or am I just over thinking it?

Someone did some testing over in the thief forums on Alla, which are actually decently easy to reproduce, if you have a 75 thf without evasion merits and a boxer's mantle. The test was basically testing the evasion rate for a naked thief vs. T steelshells (which are all level 76, and high enough so the signet evasion bonus doesn't apply). What they found (and at least worked when I tried it) was that for a 75 thf, adding evasion skill didn't change the evasion rate, but adding evasion gear did (by 5% for a SH). If you want the exact numbers you'll have to dig up their post.

Further testing (which you're welcome to repeat) is that evasion skill seems to work in tiers (based on the mob). So adding evasion skill will either do nothing or a large amount. However, +evasion gear works like +acc gear, it gives a fixed amount of improvement (and it feels a lot like +2 evasion gives you a 1% increase in your evasion rate, if you're in the range where it has an effect).

Additionally, there's an old rumor that the effect of agi is stronger if you have more +evasion gear rather than just +evasion skill gear. I have no clue if it's true or not, nor do I have a good feeling on how much agi really affects evasion rates.

Finally, there also seems to be a level-based modifier, e.g. a mage type with 200 evasion skill at 75 evades more than a level 65 nin with 200 evasion skill (although you should test this on robber crabs, b/c the steelshells will be nearly capped for accuracy on either).

Anyway, the most you can evade is around 80% of the time, and it's possible to hit that for proto-omega, although you won't hold hate, but it's useful if you need to hold it while the rest of the alliance recovers (and shame on you for the near wipe).

[Kirschy]

I don't personalli subscribe to most theories on Evasion Skill > Evasion.

I think when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter. There's only a few slots where the choices comes into play. Boxer's Mantle vs Corse Cape, Melody Earring vs Evasive Earrings, Evasion Torque vs Evasion+5 neck?

Also, while it may not be conclusive, there is at least some debate that accuracy does not have linear growth. I myself and at least a few others have noted that while at different 'parsed accuracy%' it takes varied amounts of +accuracy to raise the 'parsed accuracy%.' As someone who plays an evasion ninja with access to my own BRD for mambos, I feel this true for evasion too.

IMO the biggest evidence to support how evasion works is through /check tests. By adjusting gear you can ascertain the exact values of defense and evasion. When calcuating the accuracy portion of the /check, it compares your total accuracy (Acc from DEX, Combat Skill, +Acc items/traits/food) to the total evasion of the mob. It would seem likely that the total evasion calculation involves evasion from AGI, Evasion Skill, +Eva item/traits/food. If you perform /check testing on a Mage Aern vs PLD or DRK aern, you can see the different class ranking in evasion skill. If you /check test a THF aern you can see it's Evasion Bonus trait. Also to note are the same min/max caps for hit rate /w mobs and PCs.

These are my personal views on evasion. I can't offer any detailed tests or concerete evidence, so I offer my thoughts based on experiences, parses, and random testing over years.

[Kaeko]

Just for clarity on the Enmity cap question...

The way it was written on my Blog that +100 enmity is the enmity cap is slightly misleading and probably should be changed (except for the fact it's been written this way for like 9 months now).

This idea was developed after testing Sentinel (which gave a user +100 enmity) on someone with 0 enmity enhancement. When the same player used Sentinel at +5 Enmity Enhancement, Sentinel still gave +100, not +105. Based on this example, it was deemed that the 'cap' was +100. This is probably not enough though (big error on my part for jumping conclusions), since Sentinel could easily just automatically place you at +100 regardless. Really, you can't formally test this cap using only Sentinel, you would have to actually stack enough enmity gear to breach +100, which requires the Halloween special item. Either way, there's no real practical way to get near +100 other than Sentinel.

Also, the lower bound for - enmity gear has not been tested either, but I assume it would have to cap at -100 or less, since after -100% you like lose enmity when you perform actions.

[Amele]

I wouldn't be surprised to see gear 'caps' at +50/-50 respectively. but I don't know if this can be reliably tested without the use of the halloween gear.

[Kaeko]

I can easily test -50 since my SCH already uses like -57. I think +enmity gear is a bit harder to stack unless you know someone with the Hydra set from Dynamis Tav.

[Valyana]

I too prefer Evasion Skill+ rather than evasion+ but that comes from nothing other than thinking it works like other combat skills where 7 H2H skill on faith torque is better that 10straight acc from pcc.

That's not really a very good comparison; H2H skill is unlike other skills in that it affects weapon damage as well as acc/attack.

In general, sea torque vs PCC: 6-7 acc/7 attack vs. 10 acc. If your acc isn't already capped, 4 acc usually beats 7 attack, so PCC beats a torque.

Certain torques have other benefits that affect the comparison:

Faith Torque will give +1 H2H weapon damage if it pushes you over 282 or 291 skill, which may well make it better than PCC: that translates to about 2% higher damage/hit. But this only applies if you have 0-2 or 4 H2H merits; if you have 3 or 5-8 merits, torque won't affect your damage rating, so PCC wins.

Love Torque gives +5 DEX as well as the skill, which means +2-3 acc for THF and +3-4 acc for DRG. This makes the PCC acc advantage much smaller, so the torque wins.

Justice Torque gives +5 STR, which will be +1-2 weapon damage and +3-4 attack. This is a pretty close call, use whichever one makes you feel sexier.

[Amele]

if you have 292 skill with your chosen weapon (A+ and full merits) torque will give you 7 accuracy.

7 attack is approximately +0.02 cRatio which for most people will be somewhere between 1.5% and 2% dps. 3 accuracy (difference between PCC and torque) will be about 1.5% dps ignoring the net effect of more accuracy on ws rate.

a dragoon with full polearm merits will always get as much or more accuracy out of love torque than they will from PCC (7+3-4 = 10-11) and will get 7 attack out of it too.

j.torque will give +1 fstr, +10-11 attack, and +6 accuracy (inc. bushi as a full +5). +1 fstr for most sams is slightly better than 1% dps and again (ignoring ws rate) will outperform any residual gap a sam might have from having a better starting attack value.

the opportunity cost of weaponskilling less is hard to evaluate in a back of the envelope style like this, but I would estimate that 1% fewer weaponskills will be less valuable than 1% more damage in tp mode for most jobs (since even a hagun sam rarely pushes past 45% ws damage) so we can use that as an estimate to balance against the other stats.

in the case of j.torque this means the added +1 fstr will most likely outweigh the ws rate loss, while the +attack will outweigh the lost accuracy in tp mode.

in the case of love torque this isn't a necessary calculation since l.torque gives you more accuracy anyway.

I don't feel like doing it for all the other torques but the method works for back of the envelope as shown above. etc.