+enmity gear cap

[kareface]

I know +enmity caps at 100, but I've been told that it also caps at +50 from gear alone. Much like how haste caps at 25% from gear. I've seen the info about +100 in the LJ, but I have yet to see a reasonable source of info to corroborate the claim of it capping at 50 from gear alone. I thought I could toss the question out to see if I can clear up any misconceptions I might have.

Just to make it clear: Does enmity cap at +50 from gear alone?

[Hogie]

I have been wondering about this myself ever since Kaeko, Ashira and other tested this.

Im not 100% sure as i have never done any tests, but i have always heard that +35 Enmity was what to shoot for, anything past that is diminishing results. I could be wrong but i think its the in the same area as Haste where 23% haste would be better paired with a Tor ring in a TP burn rather then a Blitz ring, but on a zerg, blitz ring will come out better.

[Korremar]

I can't say myself that +50 Enmity from gear is the cap, as I've never tested it, but it's a fair bet that Kaeko's correct on that point. However, as far as diminishing returns, that's incorrect. While the impact of +1 Enmity when you've already got +35 is relatively insignificant comparatively, you get the same exact benefit from +1 to +2 as you do from +35 to +36. 1 Enmity is 1 Enmity, no matter how much you've got, unless you're hitting the cap. Now, to stack enmity with disregard to other things, especially if you're not heavy on macro-swapping gear in and out for things, is potentially wasteful, as you're neglecting other things in favor of one stat. But no, Enmity doesn't suffer from diminishing returns.

[Hogie]

Maybe diminishing returns was bad wording on my part. 35 Enmity what to shoot for, and then you are aiming to hit higher numbers, you are going to be losing important stats like haste for your recast. Im sure a lot of people can stack like 40-45 Enmity for a Flash Macro, but your casting in 0% haste and in turn, losing enmity because your recast is so much longer.

When you factor in the haste you get from pieces, the extra 10s or so you shave off Flash will more then make up for the couple extra enmity you get from stacking all the emity.




Back on topic though, Can anyone confirm 50 enmity cap?

[Hakamaru]

However, as far as diminishing returns, that's incorrect. While the impact of +1 Enmity when you've already got +35 is relatively insignificant comparatively, you get the same exact benefit from +1 to +2 as you do from +35 to +36. 1 Enmity is 1 Enmity, no matter how much you've got, unless you're hitting the cap.

Sounds like someone doesn't understand the term "diminishing returns". While 1 enmity garners the same increase in CE/VE no matter the base value, the more enmity you have -> the less significant this addition becomes as a percent increase of what you already have. That's the definition of diminishing returns. The more you have to begin with, the less amazing it is to stack even more. You don't have to encounter a cap for this to occur.

Double Attack, Attack, Accuracy, Enmity gear... all diminishing returns.

Haste, Physical Damage -%, Magic Damage -%... all increasing returns.

[Thorny]

Sounds like someone doesn't understand the term "diminishing returns". While 1 enmity garners the same increase in CE/VE no matter the base value, the more enmity you have -> the less significant this addition becomes as a percent increase of what you already have. That's the definition of diminishing returns. The more you have to begin with, the less amazing it is to stack even more. You don't have to encounter a cap for this to occur.

Double Attack, Attack, Accuracy, Enmity gear... all diminishing returns.

Haste, Physical Damage -%, Magic Damage -%... all increasing returns.

I like you.

[GuntarHolyFlame]

Sounds like someone doesn't understand the term "diminishing returns". While 1 enmity garners the same increase in CE/VE no matter the base value, the more enmity you have -> the less significant this addition becomes as a percent increase of what you already have. That's the definition of diminishing returns. The more you have to begin with, the less amazing it is to stack even more. You don't have to encounter a cap for this to occur.

Double Attack, Attack, Accuracy, Enmity gear... all diminishing returns.

Haste, Physical Damage -%, Magic Damage -%... all increasing returns.

Well worded. Bravo.

[Hogie]

I like you.

This

[Necronus]

Sounds like someone doesn't understand the term "diminishing returns". While 1 enmity garners the same increase in CE/VE no matter the base value, the more enmity you have -> the less significant this addition becomes as a percent increase of what you already have. That's the definition of diminishing returns. The more you have to begin with, the less amazing it is to stack even more. You don't have to encounter a cap for this to occur.

Double Attack, Attack, Accuracy, Enmity gear... all diminishing returns.

Haste, Physical Damage -%, Magic Damage -%... all increasing returns.

Except you're wrong and he's right. Diminishing returns is in relation to the previous addition, not the existing state.

If something causes 100 CE then +10 Enmity will add +10 CE. Adding another +10 Enmity adds another +10 CE. And adding yet another +10 Enmity adds +10 more CE. This is NOT diminishing returns. Constant returns can be expressed by a ratio. +1 Enmity = +1 CE per 100 Base CE.

If instead the first +10 Enmity added 10 CE, but then the next +10 Enmity only added 9 CE, then you have diminishing returns.

Diminishing returns tends to exist in games where an equation of the form 1 / 1 + X is used, though this is not the only way and the constants can be any number. Some games use this system to have a capped system with no actual cap. The cap is enforced solely due to the fact that eventually the next 1% of improvement will require an inordinate amount of the stat listed on the gear.

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Also, heres some support from Wikipedia

Suppose that one kilogram of seed applied to a plot of land of a fixed size produces one ton of crop. You might expect that an additional kilogram of seed would produce an additional ton of output. However, if there are diminishing marginal returns, that additional kilogram will produce less than one additional ton of crop (on the same land, during the same growing season, and with nothing else but the amount of seeds planted changing). For example, the second kilogram of seed may only produce a half ton of extra output. Diminishing marginal returns also implies that a third kilogram of seed will produce an additional crop that is even less than a half ton of additional output. Assume that it is one quarter of a ton.

The return from investing the first kilogram is 1 t/kg. The total return when 2 kg of seed are invested is 1.5/2 = 0.75 t/kg, while the total return when 3 kg are invested is 1.75/3 = 0.58 t/kg

To compare: the result for investing +10 Enmity on a ability that normally generates 100 CE is 10 CE / 10 Enmity = 1 CE / 1 Enmity. Investing in +30 Enmity is 30 CE / 30 Enmity = 1 CE / 1 Enmity. The same return on investment. The ratio stays equal regardless of base CE so it is a CONSTANT return, not diminishing

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TLDR Version:

Double Attack, Magic Attack, Enmity, Physical Damage -%, Magic Damage -% are NOT diminishing returns.

Haste IS an increasing return. Each percent DOES yield more benefit than the previous percent.

Note: Sorry if the caps sound snarky, but they're there for emphasis, not trying to bash you, only trying to relay the truth.

[VZX]

ITT: semantics
"I know what you are talking about is the same thing I'm talking about, but I don't like it you call it 'B' while I calll it 'A'"

As for the real cap, I think it was concluded on test 15B here:
Kanican - Enmity Testing (Part V)

[Hakamaru]

TLDR Version:

Double Attack, Magic Attack, Enmity, Physical Damage -%, Magic Damage -% are NOT diminishing returns.

Haste IS an increasing return. Each percent DOES yield more benefit than the previous percent.

Note: Sorry if the caps sound snarky, but they're there for emphasis, not trying to bash you, only trying to relay the truth.

It's all a matter of how you convert things. I don't see how you can make that arguement, then at the end make the statement that haste is increasing returns. Each % of haste reduces the same constant amount of delay as the last one applied. But if you convert to swing speed %-age, you'll observe the increasing returns nature of haste.

Similarly, for all those other things mentioned... if you convert them to terms of %-age contribution, they are most definitely diminshing returns. 20 ATT added to a base of 200 ATT is a 10% increase in attack, and roughly damage (depending on level correction and pDIF range). 20 ATT added to a base of 400 ATT is a 5% increase in ATT. If you're not going to call that diminshing returns, what would you call it?

-% physical damage and -% magic damage are identical to haste. They will always reduce the same constant value from the damage you're taking, it just becomes a larger slice of the pie if you're already wearing a lot of it. The difference between -45% damage taken and -50% is a reduction of ~7.7% damage taken, whereas adding that same 5% to nothing yields a flat 5% reduction in damage.

Edit :

As for the real cap, I think it was concluded on test 15B here:
Kanican - Enmity Testing (Part V)

I'm pretty sure the poster knew about the test you linked. His question is different. He wants to know if you only use gear enmity, will it cap at something lower? Say +50 enmity for example.

I don't know about PLD, but it would be difficult for a NIN to get +50 Enmity in gear. It would basically require every piece of HQ enmity gear and a Sattva on top of that (i believe). I don't think there's an answer for this question available at this time... and it's beyond my means to test. I think you're on your own here.


Edit 2:

This is what a NIN needs to break +50 enmity in gear. There's not a single piece that can be compromised.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item_sets.php?id=42825

[Kaeko]

Summary of what I know.

1) I have never tested a + enmity gear cap from gear + merits, only -, and it's -50 from gear and merits. There is a chance that JA, traits, or Dirge can go beyond -50, I never tested this conclusively.

2) While Sentinel puts you at +100, I never tested whether or not Sentinel just automatically makes it +100 regardless or just adds +100 then caps you off if you go over 100.

3) - enmity gear has increasing returns while + enmity gear has decreasing returns based on a logrithemic curve (Haka is correct); however, both situations lie on an essentially linear portion of the curve and therefore the returns are practically linear. You won't see any noticeable non-linearity unless you are able to get near -100 enmity.

You can argue semantics as to why it is or is not linear returns - I've done this on Alla like at least 5 times. It depends how you view the situation - I can say without a doubt though, that functionally in game and what you will notice, it is technically NOT linear. Common sense will tell you this because if you got -100 enmity you'd never get any enmity at all and to use an analogy would divide by zero in game.

[Callisto]

I'm pretty sure the poster knew about the test you linked. His question is different. He wants to know if you only use gear enmity, will it cap at something lower? Say +50 enmity for example.

I don't know about PLD, but it would be difficult for a NIN to get +50 Enmity in gear. It would basically require every piece of HQ enmity gear and a Sattva on top of that (i believe). I don't think there's an answer for this question available at this time... and it's beyond my means to test. I think you're on your own here.

Granted it wouldn't be ideal for actual gameplay since you'd be sacrificing haste, but I'm sure some of the better-geared PLDs around here could hit 50+ easily with gear they have already for the sake of testing this.

Macua+1/Kaiser(Terror)
B.Mask/Ritter/Hades+1/whatever
Hydra/Hydra/Herc/Sattva
Valor/Trance/Hydra/Hydra

comes out to +59 not counting merits

[Suiram]

On the question of what kind of "returns" we should be ascribing to things. I don't really know the ins and outs of the technical use of "diminishing (or increasing) returns," but in the context of FFXI I tend to use "diminishing" whenever the ratio of the new total to the old total decreases as the old total increases. This is the same (again, possibly non-technical) use that Hakamaru seems to apply, too, based on the examples he gave, and I think it captures the common usage on these and other FFXI forums.

[Kaeko]

I think using that definition it's linear.

[Suiram]

Actually, I have a question. If 'diminishing returns' is technically wrong, what is the proper term that captures the following scenario? You have no Double Attack, so you swing 100 times in a time interval of length T1. You add DA+10, so you swing 110 times in T1, for an increase of 10% swings/time. Compared to starting off with 50% DA. You swing 100 times a time interval of length T2. You add DA+10 so you swing 106.7 times in T2, for an increase of 6.7% swings/time. Clearly that is in some sense less of a return from adding DA+10 (and an important sense at that for FFXI, since this is what you're mostly looking at in What's Better/Shit is Situational questions). What's the technical term that captures both the fact that it's linear, and that the relative improvements decrease as the base total increases?

Kaeko posted as I was typing this, so is it just "linear" lol? Because if you tell someone "it's linear" they don't get that "oh that's bad" sense right away that they do from "diminishing" lol Maybe we can start saying "bad-linear" as in, "MAB is bad-linear returns" or something

[Hakamaru]

I guess we could use the term "convex function" to describe things like the Haste vs Attack Rate graph and "concave function" to describe things like ATT vs % Damage increase. Just seems so overly complex. Not many MMO'ers are going to understand the terms without a trip to wiki, and those terms are a little more general than I would like.

I'll probably continue to use the terms diminishing / increasing returns to describe these things, but objection noted I suppose.

[Callisto]

Just seems so overly complex and not many MMO'ers are going to understand the terms without a trip to wiki.

That. Most players have at least heard 'linear' and 'diminishing returns' in school even if they don't have a perfect grasp of the concept, they'll somewhat get what you're saying when you explain it. You start throwing around 'convex' and 'concave' and peoples' eyes glaze over and they say fuck this shit, fulltime Alky's it is.

[Kaeko]

I have issues with if it really should be called that or not. It depends on what equation you're using... It's one of those definitions that is hard to pin down. Easier just to understand how it really works and think it through and convince yourself I think.

What I mean by it is not linear but appears linear is I 'graph' it as "Number of actions to reach Enmity Cap (10000)" vs. amount of + or - enmity you have with Number of actions on Y axis and enmity change on X axis. If you do this, you will get a very basic log curve.

The range SE allows enmity to fall in is -50 to lets say +100 at most. If you look at the curve in this region, it's practically linear, so in game, you can just consider it linear for practical purposes. If you were able to get to areas of -90 enmity you'd definitely see some massive increasing returns which is really evident on a log graph.

[kareface]

The linear argument is rather fruitless. Even if you guys convinced the other of the point, no real gain in understanding of game mechanics would be reached. It would simply be a consensus of semantics. If no one had done the testing, then the 'ideal' amount of enmity is completely unknown. I know that haste and whatnot for flash is good, but you have other actions that don't require haste you can stack enmity against.

What would be the test I would have to perform to see if enmity from gear caps at +50 or not? What are the conditions, what event would I have to look to avoid that might skew the results?

Big questions are:
Does +enmity gear cap on gear alone, if so, what is the cap?
Do merits stack with that cap (if there is one)?

P.S. Does the 100 enmity from sentinel affect the act of using sentinel? Or does one need to equip enmity from the initial use to increase the spike hate from the ability, then after that point you would have the 100 enmity?