Test Results: Cirque Necklace + Shaolin Belt

[Yeager]

Earlier today I managed to get both of these (solo'd Keesha Poppo and LS killed Ovni) and I went out to do some testing to see how much of a difference the two "Enhances Martial Arts" pieces made. I did some testing prior going barehanded + Cirque, then barehanded + Cirque/Shaolin and strangely enough, both tests yielded results of 4.9 TP/hit which I found strange. For a while I thought the Shaolin Belt might have been glitched or something.

I then decided to put on a weapon to see if the difference would be more noticeable. The weapon that was used is the Barracudas (+60 Delay) Below are the results.



Test with Barracudas, and NO Shaolin Belt/Cirque Necklace

5
11
17
22
28
34
39
45
51
57

5.7 TP/hit (360 Base Delay +60 from Barracudas = 420 total delay)

Next is Barracudas + Cirque Necklace

5
11
16
22
28
33
39
44
50
56

5.6 TP/hit

Now for the last test, Barracudas + Cirque/Shaolin

5
10
16
21
27
32
37
43
48
54

5.4 TP/hit

Notes: The difference is much more noticeable when testing is done with a weapon equipped. This also proves that the Shaolin Belt (based on information from an earlier test) isn't glitched, and it works just fine. You're just not noticing any difference in TP returns via barehanded tests because it seems as though 4.9 TP/hit is the absolute lowest value of TP return per hit for PUP (has it been proven yet?) regardless of the amount of "Enhances 'Martial Arts'" gear pieces that are equipped.

However, one thing I DID notice is that the TP returns from just the Cirque Necklace + Barracudas weren't THAT different compared to the test done with Barracudas only. So I did a test for Barracudas + Shaolin Belt just to see if the numbers matched up or not.

Test - Barracudas + Shaolin Belt

5
11
16
22
28
33
39
44
50
56

5.6 TP/hit

This matches the values done in the test using Barracudas + Cirque Necklace, which shows that the -delay from the "Martial Arts" trait matches that of the one on the Cirque Necklace.

Now, bear in mind that I am NOT a math guru in the least, but I'm posting this here for those who are and hopefully will help shed some more light on the subject.

MATH GURUS, GO!!!

[Byrthnoth]

5.6 TP indicates your delay per fist was between 205 and 209.
5.4 TP indicates your delay per fist was between 197 and 200.

Your expected delay per fist was 210, so I'd say it's likely they each take 5 delay off per fist (-10 delay from your total).

Basically, together they're as good as one more tier of martial arts.


Edit:
I should note that this is the same delay reduction as Wrestler's Mantle and probably Kenkonken. Kenkonken's wiki page claims it's -20 delay and lacks a TP/hit penalty, but the fact that they claimed it lacks a TP/hit penalty makes me wonder A) How did they test it? and B) Do they have any idea how the game works?

[Cairthenn]

Both are probably -10 delay.

[Atoreis]

If I am not mistaken it seems to be that it isn't -20 daley on a piece but -10 daley.

410 daley should give 5.601 (which is 5.6 which match what you got with 1 piece)
400 daley should give 5.481 (which is 5.4 and also match what you got with 2 pieces)

kinda beaten :D

[Yeager]

5.6 TP indicates your delay per fist was between 205 and 209.
5.4 TP indicates your delay per fist was between 197 and 200.

Your expected delay per fist was 210, so I'd say it's likely they each take 5 delay off per fist (-10 delay from your total).

Basically, together they're as good as one more tier of martial arts.


Edit:
I should note that this is the same delay reduction as Wrestler's Mantle and probably Kenkonken. Kenkonken's wiki page claims it's -20 delay and lacks a TP/hit penalty, but the fact that they claimed it lacks a TP/hit penalty makes me wonder A) How did they test it? and B) Do they have any idea how the game works?

This is rather disappointing news to say the least. Though I will say this though, just from "eyeballing" it looks as though I'm attacking a little faster, but still, when I looked at the results of the testing I had done, I could tell right away that -20 delay per piece of "Enhances Martial Arts" gear wasn't right. But of course I was hoping against hope that it was wrong and that my math skills just plain suck. lol

[Radec]

I don't see any reason there would be a minimum TP/hit on pup but not MNK, can reach 4.7 barehanded.

TP: Minimum Delay to get that TP (336-359 gives 5.9, 360-368 gives 5.0, etc)
4.8: 312.0000
4.9: 336.0000 *360+1|2 MA Equips
5.0: 360.0000 *360 Exactly
5.1: 368.3077
5.2: 376.6154
5.3: 384.9231
5.4: 393.2308 **420+2 MA Equip
5.5: 401.5385
5.6: 409.8462 **420+Either MA Equip
5.7: 418.1538 **420 Delay
5.8: 426.4615

- XAxis is total h2h delay, yaxis TP given.

Assuming they're both the same, looks like -10 delay on each.

Graphs make me very beaten, but there you go.

[Yeager]

Man....how disappointing!!! Will be a lot of very disappointed PUPs out there after seeing this latest development.

[Atoreis]

So in a pt with haste + marches Cirque is equal (in speed) to tiercel neck (1% haste) and shaolin is beaten by a high margin by even swift (math done with 21-22% haste in equip). Swift also win even w/o haste and marches and with only 13% haste in equip.

Cirque is still nice cuz of 5 acc but if its worth getting idk.

[Cyprias]

Automaton Haste sets go

[Thorny]

Are people accounting for the STP on barracudas? Terrible choice of weapon to test with, due to rounding.

[Byrthnoth]

I assumed they weren't complete, and it doesn't look like they were from his 5.7TP/hit initial test.

[Shalafi]

So "Enhances Martial Arts effect" looks to be 1/2 a trait level; that pretty much sucks.

And it looks as though, as was mentioned, the necklace may be worthwhile due to the included accuracy, but the Master will benefit more from a haste belt.

[Ninjiz]

Are people accounting for the STP on barracudas? Terrible choice of weapon to test with, due to rounding.

Only the upgraded Barracudas has STP right?
Which one was used?

Edit: And if its 10 I wonder what made previous people think it was 20.
Did they get different results?

[Toth]

Interesting results. Disappointing if true but at least Cirque is still a worthwhile TP necklace.

[Ninjiz]

Interesting results. Disappointing if true but at least Cirque is still a worthwhile TP necklace.

So its better the Faith Torque?

[evilpaul]

Isn't Faith Torque better?

edit: Bah, beaten.

[Ninjiz]

On another note what and where is the best method to solo Keesha?
I tried a few times and couldn't seem to do it. My maton would always do some weird pathing and be where I don't want him to be and get smacked then there goes my timer. The closest I came was having it at 40% in that canyon near his spawn. Id run thecanyon counter clock wise and nuke twice per lap. One at each corner. but then I made an error and my macro was slow on the retreat, then bye bye maton.

Is there a better spot?

[Yeager]

The Barracudas that were used are not finished, so there was no "Store TP+ 8" in play. I'm currently on the Howling Fist trial on that weapon. I had absolutely no Store TP on from any pieces of gear whatsoever. Just Barracudas, Cirque/Shaolin.

Testing was done on Lv. 1 mobs outside San d'Oria

[Yeager]

On another note what and where is the best method to solo Keesha?
I tried a few times and couldn't seem to do it. My maton would always do some weird pathing and be where I don't want him to be and get smacked then there goes my timer. The closest I came was having it at 40% in that canyon near his spawn. Id run thecanyon counter clock wise and nuke twice per lap. One at each corner. but then I made an error and my macro was slow on the retreat, then bye bye maton.

Is there a better spot?

Claim Keesha and kite all the way to the wall near Conflux #2. Pin her there, very easy. Just make sure to always have your automaton at your side when you Deploy/Retrieve otherwise your puppet will get nailed, and leaving you hosed.

It took me a few tries to get the technique down, but once you have it mastered, Keesha Poppo is pretty much rendered harmless.

[Odin'sLaw]

Claim Keesha and kite all the way to the wall near Conflux #2. Pin her there, very easy. Just make sure to always have your automaton at your side when you Deploy/Retrieve otherwise your puppet will get nailed, and leaving you hosed.

It took me a few tries to get the technique down, but once you have it mastered, Keesha Poppo is pretty much rendered harmless.

unless there's a glitch i'm not sure what you mean by this any chance of a video? (seen a nin basically straight tanking)) but i'd like to solo this for my poor lil pup :/