Shield Size Inquiry

[Zoolander]

I don't see to read a lot of information regarding this, so figured I would ask here. The main cause for this question is this: Simba Buckler - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki

I'm just curious, what does shield size actually affect? I've heard different, somewhat conflicting things:

1. That shield size affects block rate (this seems the most backed up thought)
2. That shield size affects how much DMG is mitigated on a block.
3. That a shields defense rating determines how much damage is blocked. Different theories I've heard, some with 1 DEF = about - 0.5% phy dmg taken. I have no idea if this is true. The damage mitigated with a 15 DEF shield is definitely more than 7.5%. (60 PLD atm)

Now, any idea if 2 is true, or is it just due to the fact that smaller shields generally have lower defense while bigger shields generally have more?

Same question with 3.

Basically, if defense was the main factor and size determined block rate, then Simba Buckler would be pretty bad ass since it has 24 Base DEF, is a buckler size and has some Enmity and hp/mp to go along with it.

I'm guessing that its some kind of mixture of DMG reductions, that shield size affects a certain, perhaps static -% while the DEF on the shield further reduces DMG taken.

I am most definitely not an expert and am looking for thoughts or anyone who may have tested this out.

[Ahrana]

I'm not an expert on shields, but from what I remember block size does both 1 and 2.

If a shield is "small" then it blocks more often, but it mitigates less damage. If a shield is "large" then it blocks less often, but mitigates more damage.

If a shield is Aegis, it blocks more often and mitigates a log of damage.

Or something like that. If I'm wrong someone will come in screaming about how wrong I am though.

[Isiolia]

I think the main thing you need to figure is that shield size has the most to do with the base level of performance for the shield.

Smaller shield sizes have a higher base block rate. To my understanding, however, the highest anything outside of a Sipar gets is around 65%, and depending on level difference/shield skill, up to a size 3 shield can produce that.

The larger type a shield is, the larger the base damage reduction is. Defense rating serves to increase that from the base amount.

Everything I've seen points to using a size 3 shield (or Aegis) and stacking skill gear, unless you're trying to skillup or something. Best balance of block rate and damage reduction.

Not an expert either, as I've only been 75 PLD for a few weeks...and only finally finished capping Shield over the weekend...but that's my understanding of it anyway.

[Nameless]

Physical damage reduction that comes from def on the shield gets added on top of the physical damage reduction that comes from the size of the shield.

I am not sure what is the specific number, but you can think of it like this that each shield size gives a different base physical damage reduction, so maybe a smaller shield gives 10% base, medium shield gives 30%, big shield gives 50%. And the defense, which is 0.5% per defense on the shield gets added on top of that base. So yea, simba has high def, but it is a smaller shield size so the base is low, which in the end will mean less damage reduction even counting the high defense on the shield.

Shield size also determines blocking rate as well. Not sure of the specific rate, but I heard size 3 is the most balance damage reduction and block rate wise.

Note that block rate is also depended largely on your shield skill, and each size of shield has a different cap that requires shield skill to fill. Again, size 3 shield allows no waste of shield skill while able to achieve the cap fairly easily.

[Zoolander]

Ok, kinda what I figured as far as the mix of the two concepts.

I'm just curious though about this shield cap. I would mainly play PLD on HNMs and high level stuff, so I'm curious about this shield block cap everyone talks about.

On some threads, I hear people claim that 300ish skill and you are golden on shield block cap, but on others I hear PLDs who actually look at the numbers say that they are not capped on shield blocks on higher level things. I could care less about shield blocks on weaker mobs, I'm just kind of believing the people that go somewhat against the grain and say that no, their shield blocking is not capped on HNMs.

I'm doubting Simba buckler will become the go-to shield (or any buckler size shield), I'm just trying to get the facts straight. Seems like the claims about Koenig are border line too good to be true, especially in this day of specialization of gear sets for different situations.

[Max™]

Koenig and Terror are Size 3, with Enm (BIGGEST PART IMO), and good Def values.

Couldn't care less, btw. Could implies you care enough that you could reduce that amount.

No, without a lot of shield skill (like all you can get reasonably, 5~6 head, 7 neck, 3 ear, 10 back, 12 feet), you aren't capped on HNM's, no... not even with an Aegis.

[Seraph]

I touched on this several months ago here:

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/ffxi-...n-tanking.html

Basically, the best test I can find tells me that the BASE damage reduction on a shield block is as follows:

Buckler: 22%
Round: 40%
Kite: 50%
Tower: 60%
Relic: 60%


On top of that, approximately +0.5% of damage reduction is added for every 1 DEF on the shield. Any additional VIT the shield might offer does NOT get included in this figure. Using this information, the following numbers can be approximated for the percent damage reduction on shield blocks for popular shield choices:

Simba Buckler: 22% + 12% (24 DEF) = 34%
Koenig Shield: 50% + 11% (22 DEF) = 61%
Terror Shield: 50% + 10% (20 DEF) = 60% (70% in Campaign)
Sipar: 22% + 10% (20 DEF) = 32%
Palmerin's Shield: 50% + 10% (20 DEF) + 2% (Bonus on Shield) = 62%

Acheron Shield: 50% + 12% (24 DEF) = 62%
Genbu's Shield: 22% + 12% (24 DEF) + 10% (Bonus on Shield) = 46%

When looking at this, one must take into account the size of the shield since it also plays a factor in the frequency of blocking, and any other beneficial stats on the shield. That being said, if you can get close to capping your block percentage, Koenig and Terror are the way to go. Simba and Sipar are really only nice for helping to cap your block rate on something harder (for recasting Utusemi on HNM or something).

For mage jobs, I'd say Genbu's Shield knocks every alternative out of the park as far as I am concerned because the block percentage will not be high enough to take advantage of its better reduction, even with the +10 shield skill. Genbu's shield has the additional benefit of giving -10% damage taken even when you don't block either, which is a nice plus for jobs that have poor, or no shield skill. An earth staff might still be better, but shit is situational, and all that.


EDIT: Added Neo's Data to my list.

[Isiolia]

On some threads, I hear people claim that 300ish skill and you are golden on shield block cap, but on others I hear PLDs who actually look at the numbers say that they are not capped on shield blocks on higher level things. I could care less about shield blocks on weaker mobs, I'm just kind of believing the people that go somewhat against the grain and say that no, their shield blocking is not capped on HNMs.

Comments in the somewhat recent thread regarding this would indicate that you want everything you can get for high level mobs. Though, of course, you may be referring to that thread in your comment already =P

[Zoolander]

I touched on this several months ago here:

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/ffxi-...n-tanking.html

Basically, the best test I can find tells me that the BASE damage reduction on a shield block is as follows:

Buckler: 22%
Round: 40%
Kite: 50%
Tower: ??
Relic: ??


On top of that, approximately +0.5% of damage reduction is added for every 1 DEF on the shield. Any additional VIT the shield might offer does NOT get included in this figure. Using this information, the following numbers can be approximated for the percent damage reduction on shield blocks for popular shield choices:

Simba Buckler: 22% + 12% (24 DEF) = 34%
Koenig Shield: 50% + 11% (22 DEF) = 61%
Terror Shield: 50% + 10% (20 DEF) = 60% (70% in Campaign)
Sipar: 22% + 10% (20 DEF) = 32%
Palmerin's Shield: 50% + 10% (20 DEF) + 2% (Bonus on Shield) = 62%

Acheron Shield: 50% + 12% (24 DEF) = 62%
Genbu's Shield: 22% + 12% (24 DEF) + 10% (Bonus on Shield) = 46%

When looking at this, one must take into account the size of the shield since it also plays a factor in the frequency of blocking, and any other beneficial stats on the shield. That being said, if you can get close to capping your block percentage, Koenig and Terror are the way to go. Simba and Sipar are really only nice for helping to cap your block rate on something harder (for recasting Utusemi on HNM or something).

For mage jobs, I'd say Genbu's Shield knocks every alternative out of the park as far as I am concerned because the block percentage will not be high enough to take advantage of its better reduction, even with the +10 shield skill. Genbu's shield has the additional benefit of giving -10% damage taken even when you don't block either, which is a nice plus for jobs that have poor, or no shield skill. An earth staff might still be better, but shit is situational, and all that.

Ah interesting, nice to see some actual numbers. Sorry for redundancy, didn't find that thread in my search. Im so used to tanking everything as NIN, just trying to get all my facts straight with PLD. Seems like your findings kind of confirm what I was thinking...from that I might end up with Terror Shield...HP plus two more enmity > 1% phy dmg taken in my eyes. Koenig does look a lot cooler though...

[Seraph]

Ah interesting, nice to see some actual numbers. Sorry for redundancy, didn't find that thread in my search. Im so used to tanking everything as NIN, just trying to get all my facts straight with PLD. Seems like your findings kind of confirm what I was thinking...from that I might end up with Terror Shield...HP plus two more enmity > 1% phy dmg taken in my eyes. Koenig does look a lot cooler though...

The only reason I still use Koenig over Terror is that my Koenig is signed by a friend, and I don't feel like dropping over a million gil for a slight boost in Enmity (after going to the trouble to get a signed shield). If you can get your hands on a Terror Shield, by all means, use it. Otherwise, Koenig is the standard I would set for almost all tanking situations.

[Tubbers]

The only reason I still use Koenig over Terror is that my Koenig is signed by a friend, and I don't feel like dropping over a million gil for a slight boost in Enmity (after going to the trouble to get a signed shield). If you can get your hands on a Terror Shield, by all means, use it. Otherwise, Koenig is the standard I would set for almost all tanking situations.

Did you ever do a conclusive test on Sipar's block rate being larger than other Size 1 shields?

[Seraph]

Did you ever do a conclusive test on Sipar's block rate being larger than other Size 1 shields?

It seemed higher, but i never did enough testing to be really sure. I started leveling RDM and that ate up alot of my time in the last few months.

What made it difficult was I had no way to parse it besides visually, and I got bored quite fast counting shield blocks. I guess I could always try it against TW mobs, since I'm just looking to see if the cap is higher. I still have the shield, so I could always give it another shot...


Back in that thread, the ONLY reason I was floating the idea of using Sipar was in a situation where Utsusemi was eating most of the damage, and there was limited support. That would be a time where maxed out shield blocking percentage would be quite useful for getting shadows back up. Never really seemed to catch on though, as most well geared PLDs can handle most things with just a Koenig shield, a decent haste build, and moderately decent timing.

[Aragon of Odin]

Also, don't forget the killer effect on Koenig. Seen it proc enough on HNM to warrant its use.

[lesiu]

since we at Shield topic.

I was always wondering. Would anyone use Sipar for Ichi macro?

[Zoolander]

since we at Shield topic.

I was always wondering. Would anyone use Sipar for Ichi macro?

For ichi only? No, you would lose TP. I can't really see a situation where you would willingly give up your TP.

[Aragon of Odin]

In situations where you're not engaged to the mob? Our PLD's don't engage Tiamat, and usually disengage for the last 35% of Khim, would it be worth it in those instances?

[Tubbers]

What about Chivalry though?

[Aragon of Odin]

True dat.

[Hex]

Bring an iwing if we need Chivalry that bad. Not to mention Khim never ever gives us any MP issues. Depending on the situation and what you're fighting, Macroing certain Shields during ichi isn't a horrible Idea.

[Faxanadu]

Bring an iwing if we need Chivalry that bad. Not to mention Khim never ever gives us any MP issues. Depending on the situation and what you're fighting, Macroing certain Shields during ichi isn't a horrible Idea.

Honestly, whos going to bring a bunch of I-wings to Tiamat? even if u don't engage, the TP u get from being hit with air/TP attacks adds up. TP losing gear swaps ftl, not only are u giving up chiv, but also losing Atonment.