Ridill and Fighter's roll

[Gwylan]

From what I know and from what has been said if DA kicks in it can override the triple attack on Ridill. However, the other day when I went to merit on War and have the cor use fighter's roll, I noticed a significant increase of triple attack rate on Ridill compared to when I don't have COR. I know it sounds a bit crazy and it might have been a one time thing, but I'm curious to see if anyone has noticed anything similar to this.

[Geldric]

It sounds crazy.

[Greatguardian]

It sounds like Placebo effect to me. Though it is really hard to parse add-hits, especially in high haste scenarios, so who knows.

[cdgreg]

I was synthing the other day on earth day and got a few HQs in a row, seems crazy, but does anyone else think earth day is the best for HQing?

My point is I'd love to see you right, but without any type of data I'm going to go with the first reply here and say placebo effect and small sample size.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Two threads, two stupid rolls. Nice.

Its going to improve your two-proc rate(and subsequently your overall damage)by an amount that you'll never, ever notice.

[Belgaer]

Well, it's likely just a double attack, and then a single attack, with added lag and aforementioned placebo effect. I would say parse it. I believe you can use kparser to parse out multi-hits. I could be wrong though.

[Aragon of Odin]

I believe Job Traits proc before weapons, so Fighters Roll is increasing you job trait proc rate which in turns gives your Ridill less chance to proc.

Edit: May have worded it wrong but I believe Fighters Roll works in the same aspect as a Job Trait, it's checked first and if it procs then it would null the chance of Ridill being able to proc.

[Therin]

Well, it's likely just a double attack, and then a single attack, with added lag and aforementioned placebo effect. I would say parse it. I believe you can use kparser to parse out multi-hits. I could be wrong though.

KParser does have this function, but I find that it's extremely inaccurate in high haste situations. Last time I went WAR/NIN with Ridill (in Einherjar) it said that something like 98.3% of my hits were multi-hit, and I hit something like 1400 times in only 300 swings. I wouldn't trust it.

I'm pretty sure when your damage is rolling by as fast as it does for a high-haste WAR/NIN, it starts pushing attack rounds together.

[Baelwulf]

Please be understanding, I'm taking a shot here based on my understanding of the matter at hand but I may not understand the mathematics perfectly here.

otherwiki has fighter's roll listed with a range from 7-24%, with the middle range of numbers going 11-12-13%, so let's say a 12% Double Attack enhancement on a Warrior with no merits and no brutal(10% innate double attack rate)

Otherwiki also lists Ridill proc rates as roughly 30% single, 50% double, 20% triple.

Without fighter's roll you're going to get 10% Double Attack which will skew it, basically 10% of your singles become doubles, and 10% of your triples become doubles, so it skews it to becoming 27:55:18.
Taking a weighted average this comes to an average number of swings per round of ( 1 ( 27 )+2 ( 55 )+3 ( 18 ))/100 = 1.91 swings per round.

With a fighter's roll(assuming average yield of 12), brings your innate Double Attack rate up to 22%, applying the same logic you now have an ~23% chance to single, 62% chance to double, and a 15% chance to triple.
Taking a weighted average this comes to an average number of swings per round of ( 1 ( 23 )+ 2 ( 62 )+3 ( 15 ))/100=1.92 swings per round, so -technically- it should be slightly better, but the difference is all but negligible.

Just for shiggles let's assume you have full DA merits and a Brutal Earring equipped with an average roll of 7 for 12% DA. so 32% activation rate.
20.4% single, 66% double, 13.6% triple
weighted average results in:1.93 swings per round.

In summation, Fighter's Roll does practically nothing for Ridill-onrys, theoretically the boost would be more pronounced for a Axe/Ridill WAR, since it would have to be factored into Axe double swings and Rampages.

edit: math was turning into emoticons

[Raen Ryong]

KParser does have this function, but I find that it's extremely inaccurate in high haste situations. Last time I went WAR/NIN with Ridill (in Einherjar) it said that something like 98.3% of my hits were multi-hit, and I hit something like 1400 times in only 300 swings. I wouldn't trust it.

I'm pretty sure when your damage is rolling by as fast as it does for a high-haste WAR/NIN, it starts pushing attack rounds together.

My Kparser keeps telling me I do Kick Attacks on DRK/SAM

[Shinryuu]

Yeah haha I keep being amazed by that.

[nitsuj]

Two threads, two stupid rolls. Nice.

Its going to improve your two-proc rate(and subsequently your overall damage)by an amount that you'll never, ever notice.

I'll bite. What was the other "stupid roll" ?

[Tsuko_Asura]

Samurai Roll, when I thought you were using it in merit parties. I clarified upon that in the other thread, though.

[Kirbyprime]

Off topic somewhat... but please don't use sam roll in merits... I had a fucking mnk who insisted on sam roll (yeah right, like I'd give it to him) when he was parsing 78% because "SAM roll + kicks = MNK Ridill"

[Mazmaz]

Credit to Solrain on Alla for the pic

[Gwylan]

Please be understanding, I'm taking a shot here based on my understanding of the matter at hand but I may not understand the mathematics perfectly here.

otherwiki has fighter's roll listed with a range from 7-24%, with the middle range of numbers going 11-12-13%, so let's say a 12% Double Attack enhancement on a Warrior with no merits and no brutal(10% innate double attack rate)

Otherwiki also lists Ridill proc rates as roughly 30% single, 50% double, 20% triple.

Without fighter's roll you're going to get 10% Double Attack which will skew it, basically 10% of your singles become doubles, and 10% of your triples become doubles, so it skews it to becoming 27:55:18.
Taking a weighted average this comes to an average number of swings per round of ( 1 ( 27 )+2 ( 55 )+3 ( 18 ))/100 = 1.91 swings per round.

With a fighter's roll(assuming average yield of 12), brings your innate Double Attack rate up to 22%, applying the same logic you now have an ~23% chance to single, 62% chance to double, and a 15% chance to triple.
Taking a weighted average this comes to an average number of swings per round of ( 1 ( 23 )+ 2 ( 62 )+3 ( 15 ))/100=1.92 swings per round, so -technically- it should be slightly better, but the difference is all but negligible.

Just for shiggles let's assume you have full DA merits and a Brutal Earring equipped with an average roll of 7 for 12% DA. so 32% activation rate.
20.4% single, 66% double, 13.6% triple
weighted average results in:1.93 swings per round.

In summation, Fighter's Roll does practically nothing for Ridill-onrys, theoretically the boost would be more pronounced for a Axe/Ridill WAR, since it would have to be factored into Axe double swings and Rampages.

edit: math was turning into emoticons

Ok your math made my head hurt, but thanks anyway.

Also, got this via PM... Not like I'm going to understand it any better, but wanna share anyway. ;p


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This:

"I finally got around to test the sword while 2-box'ing our Corsair mule who just recently reached Lv50:

1376 rounds of attacks (unless Notepad++ failed me again) while being under the effects of Fighter's Roll as War/Nin.

21222212232111212331212122212232322112332211222232 22121112222112313122331222122223221222213111222223 2322112 31222131312221113221212222222222121121223122132122 22121212232231221123111212222222122232221231211221 2222222 22132122211212212221233123222232222322V12211222112 22222223123321223222322222122222223231111222321222 2221222 12131211112223131323322122222212122212122112323222 23222222222131221231221221122121123321121222211212 2222223 22212222122322221221122222122322321332222232223212 21212121323233312232232212322222123232123311333312 1122221 22312122223222231221111221231321122322132112221212 32221221222111212213221222322121211112122312131221 2222313 22112222221232212222222212132211213211211122112311 21332122331111312112222232223112222122232312221131 2222122 22222222323222222223211123332222111112223211211222 21122222322212212222231321232112132122221213122321 2211222 23222332121121312223222222121221222133221231332321 21222232132223212122222233312112212222112323212221 2222112 31221222312222222313113212212333212222112221222211 21222222112111122221322232212222212221222223322321 1112222 32323222212232222211221221232212223222223222322323 21213221313121233212212222112222222212312112322323 2121113 31212222312212221222312221222221322222322132132221 23112211123232222221323232213212231222221312222322 2322221 22221222222222221312221212122111222212322212222132 2231222322212122311221312133222122112232321.


COR rolled:

6, 9, 8, 4, 4, 7, 7, 5, 5, 7, 6, 8, 6, 7, 8, 8, 5, 10, 8, 5, 8, 6, 8, 6, 7, 7, 5, 6;


Ridill proc rate (+23%~ DA? +18%~ - assuming the final bonus gets dwindled down due to the difference between the Corsair's and the Ridill owner's level, respectively 50 and 75), read below for additional informations - ?): → 26% single attacks, 59% double attacks, 15% triple attacks.

Don't take this for granite though.


I'm no COR obviously but I did a bit of research and found this:

It is important to note that there is a level-based penalty on Chaos Roll or Wizard's Roll when the COR is lower-level than the target:

corLVL / targetLVL x bonus total

Other rolls may also be affected by this level penalty (though Evoker's definitely is not)


I wonder how reliable this info is in light of the overall disinformation the vast majority of FFXI-related message boards are comprised of and if it applies to Fighter's Roll as well. After taking a brief look at the numbers I got on my last test it would make all kind of sense though.

Does anyone have a feedback on this matter, it'd be greatly appreciated at this point."

btw, all of the above was tested in 2007.


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[Snprphnx]

how about someone go drk/nin and not wear any DA gear and then try it, to get the baseline procs pre and post roll